Bridging Generations in Academic Medicine with Dr. Robert Winn

1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,860
Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills

2
00:00:05,860 --> 00:00:11,260
to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

3
00:00:11,260 --> 00:00:17,340
As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.

4
00:00:17,340 --> 00:00:22,380
When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find

5
00:00:22,380 --> 00:00:27,780
that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research

6
00:00:27,780 --> 00:00:29,200
program.

7
00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:35,480
Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.

8
00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:40,580
However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.

9
00:00:40,580 --> 00:00:46,200
For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians

10
00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,800
the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

11
00:00:51,800 --> 00:01:01,200
Now introducing your host, Tracey Onwemona.

12
00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:03,080
Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast.

13
00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:07,440
I'm your host, Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is such a pleasure to have you on the show.

14
00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:12,640
Today, I'm especially excited because we have a very special guest, Dr. Robert Winn, and

15
00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,400
he's got so many, so many wonderful things to share, so many deep insights.

16
00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:18,920
I can't wait for him to share them with you.

17
00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,120
I just want to say, Dr. Winn, welcome to the show.

18
00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:23,600
Yo, you know what?

19
00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:25,960
Thank you for having me and appreciate it.

20
00:01:25,960 --> 00:01:27,440
Oh, it's our pleasure.

21
00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:33,040
So, Dr. Nguyen, there's so much I could say about you, but I'd love for you to introduce

22
00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:40,280
yourself, but not just you as the researcher, as the very successful scientist and leader,

23
00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:46,760
but introduce yourself even from your early beginnings in academic medicine and the secret

24
00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:51,000
sauce that brought you to this spot where you are today.

25
00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:55,600
So it's a little bit like, you know, we used to say, you know, I didn't look for thug life,

26
00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:56,600
thug life found me.

27
00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:58,560
Well, I ain't looked for medicine.

28
00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:00,600
It literally found me.

29
00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:05,520
And what I mean by that is that I'm the example of when people see things in you before you

30
00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:08,520
even recognize them within yourself.

31
00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,720
And so, you know, I always sort of say to people, they look at me now and they say,

32
00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:15,280
oh my God, you must have been always, you know, focused and, you know, knew you were

33
00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:16,280
going to do this.

34
00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:18,360
And they say, I did not.

35
00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:25,560
But what I was, was curious enough to understand what an opportunity not to say no.

36
00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:30,840
And so the story goes that, you know, as I was growing up, I really wasn't thinking about

37
00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:33,280
becoming a doctor, let alone doing research.

38
00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:37,240
I mean, I literally was focused on trying to, you know, make some cash and, you know,

39
00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:41,960
I was thinking about working at GM and, you know, being the youngest formed over at GM

40
00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:43,840
and luckily that did not work out.

41
00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:48,880
You know, there were other plans and those other plans were that, you know, I'd wind

42
00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:51,800
up going to, you know, University of Notre Dame.

43
00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:58,340
And then I'd run into amazing people who actually, again, got me on a different path because

44
00:02:58,340 --> 00:03:03,600
I was maybe suspect that they saw something in me, but not actually resistant.

45
00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:09,120
It's a common theme for me in the context of, you know, wanting to do research, basic

46
00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:10,200
science.

47
00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:14,480
This was not something that inherently I grew up with or even was exposed to.

48
00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:18,620
But I think when I got my first taste of it and having, you know, people around campus

49
00:03:18,620 --> 00:03:22,600
at that time, University of Michigan, Francis Collins was there, there was a significant

50
00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:29,320
influence on sort of saying, huh, it's interesting that I could actually help out my people and

51
00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:30,320
do research.

52
00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:35,360
And by the way, instead of just helping out the patient in front of me, if I came up with

53
00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:41,640
something, right, I could really help communities times a hundred or a thousand.

54
00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:46,760
And so that really kind of got me into the, you know, the mindset that I could become

55
00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:47,760
a researcher.

56
00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:49,960
And I'm so glad I did.

57
00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:55,120
Not because it was just purpose of just generating paper, because it gave me not only a way of

58
00:03:55,120 --> 00:04:00,160
thinking, but a lifestyle, a lifestyle of not only being curious, but a lifestyle of

59
00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:05,600
being analytical in that kind of sense of being able to be critically minded.

60
00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:09,960
And when I actually think about certain things, which is extended, interesting, all the way

61
00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:14,360
into my work, into this sort of community to bench model where we really put community

62
00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:20,880
first, the scientific principle and the scientific approaches are still really, really relevant

63
00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:27,480
as I run a cancer center or when I'm out doing community based participatory activities.

64
00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:32,340
So it's interesting that in my life, it is not so much that I found it as if the steps

65
00:04:32,340 --> 00:04:39,680
were ordered so that it, in this case, science would find me.

66
00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:43,600
And so, I mean, as usually the best way to put it, you know, I mean, I, you know, I am

67
00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:47,520
the product of what happens when you have federal programs from like Head Start at a

68
00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:53,320
teenage mom to, you know, the minority supplement awards that came with NIH to all of those

69
00:04:53,320 --> 00:05:00,360
things that when you invest in us, the ROI can be great.

70
00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:05,160
And so again, you know, that's my story and I'm straight up sticking to it.

71
00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:07,440
Thank you, Dr. Nguyen.

72
00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:08,760
That was super awesome.

73
00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:09,760
Thank you.

74
00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:10,760
Thank you for sharing.

75
00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,840
Because what I hear in that is the legacy piece.

76
00:05:13,840 --> 00:05:17,080
Like I can contribute to something greater than myself.

77
00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:24,840
I think many young people and especially underrepresented faculty in the academic medicine want to have

78
00:05:24,840 --> 00:05:28,560
that same kind of impact, but they experience barriers.

79
00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:33,480
And I, you know, I think every generation feels like them barriers are more significant

80
00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:35,840
than the generations that came before them.

81
00:05:35,840 --> 00:05:41,320
But there is a sense that there is less incentive and less investment in clinicians today in

82
00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:42,320
becoming researchers.

83
00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:44,200
Can you speak to that?

84
00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:48,560
What's different today compared to when you came up in research?

85
00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:49,560
I think it's a mindset.

86
00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:51,320
Actually, I started thinking about the money.

87
00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:56,280
And if you look at the money, right, the gross amount, some money that are being spent right

88
00:05:56,280 --> 00:06:00,920
now versus what was being spent, I'm not quite sure that the money's not there.

89
00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:07,140
But what I'm sure is that the mindset and the, and really the focus, right, there was

90
00:06:07,140 --> 00:06:12,900
once upon a time where we really focused on understanding that there were lower numbers

91
00:06:12,900 --> 00:06:17,200
of minorities that were part of our medical school and lower numbers of minorities that

92
00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:19,180
were part of the science field.

93
00:06:19,180 --> 00:06:24,680
And then there was a societal sort of center, we should do something about that.

94
00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,440
What's eroded isn't the money.

95
00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:33,520
What's eroded is that ethos of making sure that we included diversity and that it was

96
00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,200
good for all of us.

97
00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:40,840
You know, the funny part is I used to talk about, you know, generation, you know, one

98
00:06:40,840 --> 00:06:44,160
of my ex, whatever the hell, you know, but I'm definitely not a millennial.

99
00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:45,160
I know that.

100
00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:48,360
So it was either ex or wherever in that zone, that early ex, whatever that was.

101
00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,960
And we, you know, we always dogged out, you know, the millennials and everything that

102
00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:52,960
came after.

103
00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:53,960
I don't even know where you're at.

104
00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:55,040
X, Y, Z, A, I don't know.

105
00:06:55,040 --> 00:07:01,120
But whatever is after us, we have done, I think all of us are dissatisfied by the following

106
00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:02,400
narrative.

107
00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:05,200
You guys are softer.

108
00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:09,280
Here's the reality that I was just talking with Dr. Vivian Penn, who's also a giant in

109
00:07:09,280 --> 00:07:15,520
our field, and without folks like Vivian Penn, I don't have a foundation to then stand on

110
00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:17,720
to take things to the next level.

111
00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:21,360
She and I were talking and she said something that was really just made a light bulb.

112
00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:26,560
She said, now listen, you know, the difference is that our generation, meaning the baby boomers

113
00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:30,800
and the exes, we didn't know what better looked like.

114
00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:32,080
It wasn't there.

115
00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:35,740
We were all struggling to quote get there.

116
00:07:35,740 --> 00:07:43,040
But generations that came after us actually had a taste of what good was.

117
00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:46,920
And in front of your eyes, you're seeing it eroded.

118
00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:51,240
Now when we talk about that, we don't really talk about these generational differences about

119
00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:56,200
what makes it different when I don't expect that anybody's going to give me anything.

120
00:07:56,200 --> 00:08:02,060
When I expect that there's going to be obstacles, because I assume that no one, even in getting

121
00:08:02,060 --> 00:08:07,240
as a 10 year old chocolate from a white store that when I went into a neighborhood and being

122
00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:11,240
able to be like shook, you know, shaking down and like, yo, why you in here buying a snicker

123
00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:12,240
bar?

124
00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:13,240
I'm like, because my daddy gave me a quarter.

125
00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:14,240
You know what I'm saying?

126
00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:19,680
That was an expectation that there was going to be obstacles and that there wasn't anybody

127
00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:21,120
that was going to set up something for me.

128
00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:22,120
I was like, what?

129
00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:26,680
You know, people would say, well, don't you expect that they're going to... No, my expectation

130
00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:29,880
was that there was going to definitely be like, that's not you, you don't belong here.

131
00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:30,880
That was, I mean, it's straight up.

132
00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:32,880
I can't even lie about it.

133
00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:37,680
So I had to change my mental and say, but what if I grew up in generations where the

134
00:08:37,680 --> 00:08:42,880
expectation was that things weren't supposed to be the same and that we, as a result of

135
00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:47,720
the previous generation, had a more of a taste of that, right?

136
00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:54,240
What then happens is if in my lifetime, I'm now seeing things roll back.

137
00:08:54,240 --> 00:09:02,080
That mental allows for a sense of saying that you're seeing loss as opposed to understanding

138
00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:07,680
that we already were in the negative column and people were going to keep you in the negative

139
00:09:07,680 --> 00:09:10,520
column and that was just normalized.

140
00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:15,800
What actually happens in the generations that followed when that wasn't the mindset that

141
00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:20,820
not having was normalized and having was to say, yeah, we're supposed to?

142
00:09:20,820 --> 00:09:26,160
So I'm actually sort of saying to you in a very roundabout way that I think when we come

143
00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:31,600
to obstacles, we have to actually have grace for one another in our cultures and our generational

144
00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:37,000
differences in a sense of younger people recognizing that people from the ex generation, particularly

145
00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,760
early ex, I can't speak for them later exes.

146
00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,040
The later exes, I can't speak for them.

147
00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:45,840
I'm talking about the ones right in that baby boom to the early ex.

148
00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:50,840
I can tell you for real, for real that that generation was like me sort of saying that

149
00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:56,080
we were being the last generation of forced busing where we were being integrated and

150
00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:58,520
where we actually were in communities where people didn't want us.

151
00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:01,120
It was an assumption that people didn't want you.

152
00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:06,080
It was an assumption that things weren't going to be fair and it was an assumption that there

153
00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:07,560
was always going to be obstacles.

154
00:10:07,560 --> 00:10:13,600
So once that's your normal, you're like, yeah, all right, but what would it be like if I

155
00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:17,760
didn't have that mental where I assumed that there was going to be an obstacle and all

156
00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:22,800
of a sudden in my mind and in my lifetime, we were seeing those things eroded.

157
00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,680
That is a different sort of mentality and that is something that I think when we talk

158
00:10:25,680 --> 00:10:31,360
about intergenerational, I hope we in the future are able to start those discussions

159
00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:35,760
so that the younger generations can have a little bit more grace for the older and that

160
00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:40,240
our older sort of generations can have a little bit more grace in understanding what's going

161
00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:46,000
on with the framework and the mental of the millennials and all.

162
00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,360
So I think that that's an important thing that in a black community in particular that

163
00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:54,760
we are not doing that I hope to have future conversations on what that looks like because

164
00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:58,400
I think that there goes the rubs because when I think of obstacles, I'm like, yeah, of course

165
00:10:58,400 --> 00:10:59,400
there's obstacles.

166
00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:02,240
I mean, we were like, well, what do you think about the obstacles?

167
00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:05,440
I mean, I don't know where it was.

168
00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:06,440
So, right?

169
00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:07,440
I love it.

170
00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:11,400
I appreciate you talking about that.

171
00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:12,400
I want to, you know, it's interesting.

172
00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:16,960
So I'm going to go back 10 years when I first started as an early career faculty and there

173
00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,200
were these obstacles that I wasn't expecting.

174
00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:23,080
And so when you're speaking, it really speaks to me because I'm like, I was not expecting

175
00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:24,080
those obstacles.

176
00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:25,300
And you know why?

177
00:11:25,300 --> 00:11:28,040
Because throughout undergrad, I was supported all the way.

178
00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:30,360
And then in medical school, I was mostly supported.

179
00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,240
In fact, I was in residency and even in fellowship.

180
00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:35,600
And then I got to the faculty position.

181
00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:40,440
And that was where it became clear that there are a lot more obstacles than I had ever experienced.

182
00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:42,680
And when I talk to someone-

183
00:11:42,680 --> 00:11:46,600
So that meant that the early work that we put in was working.

184
00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:47,600
That's a great point.

185
00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:48,600
That's a great point.

186
00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:54,880
To lead a medical student and to get the residencies and the fellowship supported because my generation,

187
00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:57,080
that was not an easy, like, support of what?

188
00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,020
They would be like, man, we hope you go.

189
00:11:59,020 --> 00:12:00,020
We hope you fail.

190
00:12:00,020 --> 00:12:01,020
Right?

191
00:12:01,020 --> 00:12:02,800
It was like, and they were pretty straight up with it.

192
00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:03,800
You don't belong here.

193
00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,440
And I was like, you're right, but we're going to finish anyway.

194
00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:08,360
So you are right.

195
00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:14,960
But what happened was, to your point though, that because of work, we made progress.

196
00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,140
Then what happens is that we need to actually make more progress.

197
00:12:18,140 --> 00:12:22,960
But in the current age and what you're getting at is that some of the progress being made,

198
00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:27,640
when you see that roll back, that has to actually hurt in a different way.

199
00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:28,640
Okay.

200
00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:31,760
So tell me now, how do we solve this problem?

201
00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:35,200
Because you're tackling this problem at many different levels.

202
00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:39,520
And I'm connected with you because I'm a member of the Wynn Career Development Award.

203
00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:40,520
You can say that again.

204
00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:41,520
I mean, open it up.

205
00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:42,520
You don't know me.

206
00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:43,520
You don't know me.

207
00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:44,520
I'm a weirdo.

208
00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:53,400
So I see you just working hard to remove these obstacles, at least give people tools to

209
00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:54,400
scale these obstacles.

210
00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:58,520
But I want you to speak to kind of your general perspective.

211
00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:05,160
And maybe if you want to speak for even your generation to the extent that you can, what

212
00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:10,320
are the things that you're doing to help us from a younger perspective understand the

213
00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:14,840
sacrifices and the investments that you're continuing to make to move us forward?

214
00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:15,840
You know what?

215
00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:17,480
And you just hit the nail on the head, right?

216
00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:22,680
There is a level of mission generated that while I think they use a young folks term,

217
00:13:22,680 --> 00:13:29,200
I'm into myself, there is a danger of being so much into yourself though that you become

218
00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:31,800
a me as opposed to a we.

219
00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:37,760
By the same token, the other philosophy of that there is no me, it's all we, right?

220
00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:42,280
I'm always giving allows for people to be burned out without even knowing.

221
00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:47,480
So there's this wisdom that interestingly that I've been watching about how do we move

222
00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:51,120
the needle forward about balance.

223
00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:53,800
Not balance, lifestyle balance and all this stuff.

224
00:13:53,800 --> 00:14:02,040
So you can say what you want to say, but at some point, you ain't going to always be balanced.

225
00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:07,120
Like keeping balanced diet, that takes a lot of strictness and I ain't that strict, right?

226
00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,320
So there's some days I'll be like, you know what?

227
00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,720
I know that pound cake ain't right, but I'm going to eat it.

228
00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:14,720
That's what's going to happen.

229
00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:19,120
I'm going to limit it to one, but I'm going to have a slice of that pound cake, right?

230
00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,280
So the reality is that's like life.

231
00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:27,000
So as we're talking about how do we move things ahead, it is interesting because the formula

232
00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:28,480
has not changed.

233
00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:30,680
The formula has not changed.

234
00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:35,920
It is making sure that we are not only at the table, but having opportunities to set

235
00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:36,920
the table.

236
00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:41,440
And what I think we need to do better on is how do we take care of our leaders once they're

237
00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:46,920
there and then how do the leaders take care of our younger generations as they're moving

238
00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,080
through to open up doors.

239
00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,800
You know, we, you're talking frankly, y'all know what's up.

240
00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,600
I mean, sometimes you get one brother, one sister there, they're like, listen, I'm the

241
00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:56,600
one.

242
00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,040
You know, what's the rest of y'all, right?

243
00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:04,200
But then you actually have folks who sort of say we never get to the tables.

244
00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:07,780
And that's the one thing I think we have to continue to fight.

245
00:15:07,780 --> 00:15:08,780
How do we do that?

246
00:15:08,780 --> 00:15:14,440
I do think that there will become a need over the next several years and probably over the

247
00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:20,360
next six months and certainly over the next year to double down in being deliberate about

248
00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:25,200
being seen, about being at the committees that are making the decisions.

249
00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:28,120
And by the way, I've always, you know, this is straight up hood.

250
00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,520
I'm like, if you ain't gonna let me at your table, I'll create a table and we're gonna

251
00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:36,000
actually come with it enough that you're gonna want to be in mine and then we'll figure it

252
00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:37,000
out.

253
00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:38,000
That's right.

254
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,560
I do think that this sense of, you know, I mean, not to get all barby like and all the

255
00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:45,640
rest of that, but we do have to wake up to that we have models and we have frameworks

256
00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,320
that have already been shown.

257
00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:53,840
The problem is that most of those we haven't been passed down and we haven't been taught.

258
00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:58,640
And so I have made it a deal to make sure that I stay in contact with people like Charles

259
00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:05,080
Thomas, Theodos Brawley, Lucille Elms-Campbell, Asanya Springfield, the Tom Hage Kings, because

260
00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:09,400
the reality is that there are frameworks that based on their wisdom that they weren't able

261
00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:15,680
to do that they would say, if I had an opportunity, here's a model that I would use and I'm, aha.

262
00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:19,640
So I do think that how we're gonna do it, I think we need to have more intergenerational

263
00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,120
conversations than we are having now.

264
00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,720
And not the kind that are blaming like, ah, you know, I mean, it's true.

265
00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:33,780
You know, we, our generation, the baby boomers and the Xers were probably much more in line,

266
00:16:33,780 --> 00:16:38,720
I think, with the experience of having to be super adapters to pain.

267
00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:43,840
That is one of the elements that I think as an African American that we have actually

268
00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:49,280
become super or have, for whatever reasons we've had to, right, for survival, have to

269
00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:56,000
become super adapters to pain, which brings about its own pathology.

270
00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:57,760
And so I readily admit that.

271
00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:01,920
However, what I can say is that you can't be crying if somebody ain't letting you in

272
00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:02,920
the door.

273
00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:05,480
They're like, that door wasn't meant for you.

274
00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:09,200
So at some point you like, and then when you get there, you're like, oh, I'm all uncomfortable

275
00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:10,200
with these people.

276
00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:11,800
Of course, but I mean, what the hell?

277
00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:14,520
The dead man's place wasn't made for you.

278
00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:19,760
We have to get there, set the table and say, this is what we're gonna do and this is how

279
00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:20,760
I'm gonna do it.

280
00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:24,920
And to be quite honest with you, the whole concept of black excellence and your authenticity

281
00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:28,380
in doing it is scary, right?

282
00:17:28,380 --> 00:17:34,200
Because to make it in those early years, we do have to be able to adapt, not get assimilated.

283
00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:38,400
You see, I ain't saying get assimilated, because some folks get assimilated so much, you're

284
00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:40,120
like, well, come on back.

285
00:17:40,120 --> 00:17:44,760
I wanted to make sure that they understood at all times that the excellence that they

286
00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,840
were seeing is from me.

287
00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:51,640
And this is the way I came with whatever swag, whether they liked it or not.

288
00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,160
And in fact, people say, have you always quoted hip hop artists?

289
00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:58,280
I was like, yeah, since the day I was a woman, Tim's and mine was a resident with a bow tie

290
00:17:58,280 --> 00:17:59,280
and a suit.

291
00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:01,840
And people were like, those are construction, but I was like, don't call them construction

292
00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:02,840
boys, they're lieutenants.

293
00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:07,960
And in fact, I got my clinical Tim's and then I got the Tim's that I wear when I make rouse,

294
00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:09,760
so they're playing with me, right?

295
00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:14,240
So that sense of pride of I'm bringing all of me.

296
00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:18,920
And because when you see that at the end of the day, when I was a resident, I became resident

297
00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:24,680
of the year or intern of the year, that they also saw that I could learn and be me.

298
00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,080
And there was a sense of liberation in that.

299
00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:28,520
So how do we get there?

300
00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:33,840
More conversations, inter-general conversations, but making sure that we are deliberate in

301
00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:39,760
figuring out what are the committees of impact that when we show up, we not only show out,

302
00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,880
but we make room for other people to bring them up.

303
00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:44,880
That's what our grandparents taught us.

304
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:48,840
The reality is we have had various levels of successes of that because sometimes you

305
00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:53,160
can get intoxicated once you get to the tables and figure you the one.

306
00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:57,080
All of a sudden you have all this praise on you, you're this and you're that.

307
00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:01,600
And then all of a sudden you recognize that you're lonely as hell.

308
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:05,680
Because we have not done what our ancestors and what our grandparents and parents taught

309
00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:09,880
us is that when we come at those tables, we shouldn't just be sitting there.

310
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:17,280
We should be setting part of that table up and bringing our folk up with us.

311
00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:21,720
And I think that that is something that needs to be re-looked at how we can do that.

312
00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:25,880
And the pride of just sort of saying, I understand people like we're just all human beings and

313
00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:30,280
I don't see color, but I'm like, well, like Tiger Wood, everybody else sees it except

314
00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:31,280
for you.

315
00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,120
But I mean, you can do what you want to do.

316
00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:37,400
But in this state, in this country, people see it.

317
00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:43,520
So why not embrace it and understand that let's lean into it and say, I am this, but

318
00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:44,960
also these other things.

319
00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:50,520
And this level of Andrew's Lord, I think the poet Lord, we talk about all that stuff about

320
00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:52,680
the intersectionality of things.

321
00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:59,360
I am more than just being an African-American, but by and large, I want to make sure that

322
00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:01,520
folk understand that I am that.

323
00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:02,960
I'm not all of that.

324
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:04,720
I'm much more than that.

325
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,480
I'm the son of people that lived in rural areas and blah, blah, blah.

326
00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:10,400
All these other things come with it too.

327
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,820
But the fact of the matter is that that's my income and that's where I start from.

328
00:20:13,820 --> 00:20:16,800
And so again, you asked me, how do we make this work?

329
00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:18,440
We know how to make it work.

330
00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:19,440
We work hard.

331
00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:20,440
We communicate more.

332
00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:24,480
We need the network better, and we need to make sure that when we're at the tables, we're

333
00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:29,440
now already thinking about not only how long you're going to be there, but who else comes

334
00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:30,560
to follow you.

335
00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:32,960
And so instead of just bringing one, how do you bring three?

336
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:33,960
You know what I'm saying?

337
00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:37,520
Kanichi was who take you want to meet all day long.

338
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:38,520
I love it.

339
00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:40,120
I also love the analogy is about grandparents.

340
00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:42,640
Because I think about I'm a parent of young children.

341
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:43,640
I think about this a lot.

342
00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,320
I think about the grandparents and they don't have the stress that they had when they were

343
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:48,320
parents.

344
00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:51,600
And so I think it's very difficult to teach the younger generation something that perhaps

345
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,040
the parents are too busy right now to teach.

346
00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:58,120
And so I love the idea of the conversations of the older and the younger generation because

347
00:20:58,120 --> 00:21:03,280
this idea of like, you expected to be taught is something that I do wish people had shared

348
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:04,280
with me early on.

349
00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,420
So I wouldn't have been surprised when these obstacles came.

350
00:21:07,420 --> 00:21:09,440
And so I love what you shared.

351
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:14,320
And I hope that there are so many more of these opportunities that we can take advantage

352
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,320
of in making these connections.

353
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:18,440
Oh, well, thank you so much.

354
00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,080
Well, you know, I do think that they're important conversations.

355
00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:24,520
And I got to tell you what trips me out is when I'm somewhere and everybody's nice to

356
00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:25,520
me, I'm like, what the hell?

357
00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:26,520
Stop it.

358
00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:27,520
I mean, hold on.

359
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:31,360
I'm like, oh, don't somebody go down.

360
00:21:31,360 --> 00:21:37,000
I'm like, it's so but that I have to laugh at myself because that is my generation of

361
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:38,000
how I grew up.

362
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:42,520
Because when you like, yeah, I know that with the exit.

363
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:43,520
Yeah.

364
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:48,160
And my sense of the exit, I mean, sometimes I'll be like, literally a case in the room

365
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:49,480
these days, like, where's the exit?

366
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:51,760
So these people be too damn nice.

367
00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:53,240
What's up?

368
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,420
And so it's wonderful, though, to see that we can change.

369
00:21:56,420 --> 00:21:59,920
But I think that we have the elephant in the room is that we have to recognize that we

370
00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:06,960
have also live in a generation now where there is a actual push to go backwards.

371
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:13,640
And part of that is a fear of change, and part of that is a fear that we have not always

372
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:19,840
as we've risen, made sure that we made sure that we've made sure that everyone is still

373
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:21,400
visible.

374
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:25,740
We have invisible communities, which is why I work so hard and making sure that as we're

375
00:22:25,740 --> 00:22:29,940
pushing the science and we're pushing the clinical trials and we're pushing these things,

376
00:22:29,940 --> 00:22:35,320
that we also are not locked in into just pushing it for our communities, but making sure that,

377
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:39,800
for example, rural underserved communities, which are not just all white, but even those

378
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:45,360
that are homogeneous white within the eastern parts of Kentucky benefit from our science.

379
00:22:45,360 --> 00:22:49,360
The truth of the matter is that if it only benefits the people that come to my hospital,

380
00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:52,880
then we fail because most people aren't getting to our hospitals.

381
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:59,840
And so the question becomes, how do we make communities, just like Brother Hampton said,

382
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:01,800
that Brother Hampton was one of my...

383
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,120
I mean, listen, I know I'm talking Panther.

384
00:23:04,120 --> 00:23:08,720
But if I had to pick a Panther, it was Fred Hampton because Fred Hampton was the first

385
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,720
that sort of said power to the people.

386
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:13,640
It wasn't just power to black people.

387
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:14,640
It was power to the people.

388
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:19,480
And the first Rainbow Coalition before there was a Jesse Jackson was with Fred Hampton,

389
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:25,140
who understood the power that we all actually have sometimes similar struggles and we should

390
00:23:25,140 --> 00:23:26,400
benefit from those things.

391
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:30,160
In our case, people should benefit, all people, from our medicines.

392
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,400
And all people should benefit from our research.

393
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:37,640
And all people should benefit from the molecules that becomes medicines, that become trials,

394
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:42,160
that become really extension of healthcare to make people's life healthier.

395
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,360
And that philosophy, I think it was not new.

396
00:23:45,360 --> 00:23:49,680
That's not a new 21st century philosophy or post Obama and all the rest of that.

397
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:53,680
I mean, I never bought it to the post-racial thing anyways, but for sure this wanting to

398
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,880
be that we are the world, we are one is okay.

399
00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:01,520
But understand, we don't have to be all of that and still not be us.

400
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:06,000
It's my responsibility as a cancer center director to make sure definitely that the

401
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:11,120
science that I do actually helps hopefully to inspire and hopefully impact African-American

402
00:24:11,120 --> 00:24:12,120
communities.

403
00:24:12,120 --> 00:24:17,120
But if it's not actually hitting Asian communities, Latino communities, rural communities, and

404
00:24:17,120 --> 00:24:24,000
even urban, very rich white communities, then I'm not doing my job.

405
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,320
So this is a wonderful thing of being both, right?

406
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,960
That both can exist at the same time, which I'm really digging.

407
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:37,800
I think, and you set up the stage perfectly for us to talk now about the Robert Winn Diversity

408
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,000
in Clinical Trials program.

409
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,560
And can you just speak about that program?

410
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:44,880
How does it fit within all that you've been sharing?

411
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:45,880
What is this program?

412
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:51,640
Yeah, I learned from John DeMonte, you know, saying from Maya Angelou, and that is that

413
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:56,240
to change the system, you just can't do something different.

414
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:58,540
You have to do a different thing.

415
00:24:58,540 --> 00:25:00,200
So here was the deal.

416
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:04,520
We know that we have people who are very good people in outreach and engagement, but most

417
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:10,340
of those folks are not aware of the difficulties and the pain or the knowledge and the expertise

418
00:25:10,340 --> 00:25:13,520
of how do you get a molecule to become a medicine.

419
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,400
So that's a weakness.

420
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:22,280
Then you have people who are physicians, well-intended clinical trialers who want to make high impact

421
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,640
trials or doing basket trials or pragmatic trials or doing all these things.

422
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:31,320
But we ain't got no freaking clue about the, I didn't just say outreach and engagement.

423
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:35,160
I said the science of outreach and engagement.

424
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:41,600
The program was meant to recognize that there was a big hole since the advent of clinical

425
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:46,080
trials that we did not develop a quarterback for clinical trials.

426
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:51,520
And what I mean by that is that someone who had knowledge of both how to design and implement

427
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:58,160
a high impact trial and also that same person may not have the complete expertise, but was

428
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:04,560
aware and had some expertise in the science of outreach and engagement.

429
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,120
And why do I say the science of outreach and engagement?

430
00:26:07,120 --> 00:26:11,720
Well the science of outreach and engagement or the science of community-based type approaches

431
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,960
means that it is built on literature, which there's a 40 plus year history on this.

432
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:21,840
It also is built on frameworks so that when I design and implement my trials, the goal

433
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:26,760
was to not only have someone design the arm one and arm two and we're going to have these

434
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:33,640
two arms, but as they're developing their protocols, that at every step of the way,

435
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:39,200
they're developing also a parallel protocol on how they're going to get more people from

436
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,520
challenged backgrounds onto those studies.

437
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:46,680
You know, my dream was to actually have one of my scholars, if you will, actually come

438
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:51,000
up with a protocol that looked like not just here's a protocol of how we get more people

439
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:56,320
on to clinical trials or say in this case African-American to rural or here's an event

440
00:26:56,320 --> 00:27:01,520
this is my trial, but to imagine a world in which we challenge the entire world of doing

441
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:03,080
something different.

442
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:07,840
And we actually meld with those two that as the same time we were actually designing and

443
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:14,040
implementing a trial for getting rural patients with GLEO, you know, with GBMs, how do we

444
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:19,360
get them onto trials that we would actually also be solving the problem of, yeah, here's

445
00:27:19,360 --> 00:27:26,160
a wonderful high impact trial for GBMs and other neurocancers, but we were also putting

446
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:32,520
equal amount of attention to how do we leverage communities to help us get more people on.

447
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,720
How do we connect with primary care doctors?

448
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:40,560
How by the way, when we communicate, what's the effect of communication?

449
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:45,180
How do we use asset maps, both functional, which is a new word, functional asset mapping

450
00:27:45,180 --> 00:27:46,520
and asset mapping?

451
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:52,160
How do we put all of those, so not that it exists in one person, but that they are aware.

452
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:57,000
For example, a quarterback of a team or a point guard has to know all the other positions,

453
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:02,000
they don't play all the other positions, but they have to be aware of how things work so

454
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,920
that they can get from point A to point B to make a play.

455
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:12,120
We did not have that person in any of our clinical training period.

456
00:28:12,120 --> 00:28:18,280
So I said, well, since I don't see it, I ain't asking no questions, let's just do it.

457
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,800
And in fact, people would say, well, that's, wow, that's going to be a lot of work and

458
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:22,800
it's crazy.

459
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:27,220
You're like, yeah, it's a lot of work, but every big thing is going to be a lot of work.

460
00:28:27,220 --> 00:28:30,920
So it really is trying to make sure that the first and the second and the third pancakes,

461
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:35,560
they get better and better with iteration on what does it look like when you have someone

462
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:40,320
who actually not only understands regulatory and how to get things from a molecule to a

463
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:44,920
medicine into a trial and all the arms of a trial, but also they're understanding the

464
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:50,240
difficulty and saying, yep, this is what we'll have to do operationally and from a protocol

465
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:55,680
wise for this trial to actually have this percentage or to have this many people from

466
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:56,920
the rural area.

467
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:01,200
This is what I'm going to have to integrate into my protocol and take into account to

468
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:02,840
get that outcome.

469
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,960
Now that is a new idea.

470
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,240
Back in the old days, up in the 80s and 90s, we'd be saying like, that's fat, but I'm going

471
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:11,720
to be like, yo, that's hot.

472
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:13,640
So that's what we're going for.

473
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,520
Now the reality is, will we get there immediately?

474
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:17,520
We won't.

475
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:22,120
But just like everything, to get to the moon or to get to immunotherapy, nobody cries and

476
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:28,720
we talk about it took 125 years from Cooley to all these other things to get to the checkpoint

477
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,800
inhibitors, nobody cried that it took 125 years and there were some setbacks.

478
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:40,200
So quit playing with me that this concept of having a group of, for the first time,

479
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:46,280
first trained people in the country and maybe actually in the world, because I've checked,

480
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:51,600
who are being taught and tried to train and what happens when you are skilled and you

481
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,360
have two kids and extra teeth in both, what happens?

482
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,480
I think it's going to be a game changer.

483
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:03,560
That's going to take a while, but that's why, look here, Dr. Ode, this is why I'm so proud

484
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:04,560
of you.

485
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:08,200
I'm like, girl, listen, listen, you don't know how, look, I'm smiling ear to ear.

486
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:09,200
My heart, you know what I'm saying?

487
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:15,120
It's big, I'm just saying, because y'all will make the difference and be the game changers

488
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:19,240
and really sort of set it off in a way that I'm just excited about seeing how that's going

489
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:20,240
to go down.

490
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,200
I'm excited to be part of the program.

491
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,320
I thank you for your vision and building it together, because one of the things that I

492
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:34,080
see is that there is an expectation that clinicians are going to finish clinical training and

493
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:39,520
then all of a sudden be experts in research and not even to talk about being the science

494
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:41,120
of community engagement.

495
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,040
And I love that you emphasize that as well.

496
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,720
It's like, well, clinical training should be about clinical training, but then the next

497
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:52,000
step of training so that we can build diversity in clinical trials, actually it needs to happen.

498
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:57,560
And so it's almost like, you know, the program is novel, it's amazing.

499
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:01,280
And it's also like, but why haven't we been doing this all along?

500
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:05,440
Why have we assumed that it was just all going to work out?

501
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,240
And so I just want to thank you.

502
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,400
You're a trailblazer in so many ways.

503
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:16,280
And I mean, thank you.

504
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:17,280
You know what I want to say?

505
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:22,080
I want to say you're not just reaching out, you're not just reaching physicians, you're

506
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:23,760
going further back.

507
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,560
Talk about the CIPP pathway.

508
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,800
Well, you know, it's going to be, you know, the reality is this is all about the phase

509
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:31,800
game.

510
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:33,240
So we have it moving forward and moving back.

511
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,040
We actually recognize, and at some point we'll get into the high schools and middle schools,

512
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,500
but you know, right now you got to take a step at a time when you're building this program.

513
00:31:40,500 --> 00:31:44,520
We have a component of taking those young, those young minds, people in medical school

514
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,360
who haven't even thought about careers in oncology or haven't thought about careers

515
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,760
in cardiology or haven't even thought about being clinical trialists.

516
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:57,000
They just, and being able to expose them to you guys and expose them to the science and

517
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:01,840
expose them to the importance of having a life of academic relevance.

518
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:07,040
I say the people that my first half of my life was signatured by just pursuing academic

519
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,240
excellence because that's what I was taught.

520
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,960
But at some point I had to transition from chasing academic excellence and making that

521
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:18,880
excellence turn into being academically relevant and ultimately looking at just from innovation

522
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,040
to actually having a life of impact.

523
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,040
And when you start putting that in front of these young people, and all of a sudden light

524
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,320
bulbs go on and that's like the most amazing thing to see.

525
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:32,080
By the way, the wonderful thing about this program is that it's growing in ways, leaps

526
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,840
and bounds that I did not expect, you know, when I came out with this.

527
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,720
I mean, sometimes, you know, some of y'all didn't know that this was supposed to be only

528
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,040
a pilot grant for VCU.

529
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:42,600
That's how it started.

530
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:47,680
And then after George Floyd, John DeMonte, who is from Bristol Mines Squibb Foundation,

531
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,680
called me up and said, Dr. Wynn, we need to go big.

532
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:52,880
And we did.

533
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,880
By the way, that's one of the people you want to talk about a game changer when it comes

534
00:32:55,880 --> 00:33:00,480
in the context of Canton, the context of how foundations can give resources to change the

535
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:01,480
world.

536
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,720
Before there was a PEPFAR and all the rest of these things, there was a John DeMonte

537
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:12,080
who got Bristol Mines Squibb Foundation before there was anyone else to actually get into

538
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:15,840
Africa and give HIV drugs and figure out how to do that.

539
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:16,840
That was John.

540
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:22,520
And in fact, there have been several prime ministers who've gotten up and said that John

541
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:29,360
DeMonte from Bristol Mines Squibb Foundation has saved generations of young Africans because

542
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:30,360
of his work.

543
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,640
There are men like that that come in your life and people like that, Catherine Grimes,

544
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:39,120
John DeMonte and others who come into your life who you just sort of say, yo, let's go

545
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:40,820
do this.

546
00:33:40,820 --> 00:33:47,300
So in addition to having a medical student program, we now have for the Wynn CDA scholars

547
00:33:47,300 --> 00:33:54,800
another three-year program and being part of what we call the cooperative group trials

548
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,280
and cancer cooperative group trials.

549
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:01,920
Also we have now developing with a group of cardiology within the AHA that there's an

550
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,000
additional three years of additional training.

551
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:09,200
And we're about to actually play with the concept of we know people are going on a form

552
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,960
of two, how do we give opportunities and exposure to that?

553
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:18,040
So my job is really just to say we about training the next generation with one caveat that I'm

554
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,240
not just training somebody who just do clinical trials.

555
00:34:21,240 --> 00:34:24,600
We talk in clinical trials plus.

556
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:30,560
And the plus is how do we get the best, most effective clinical trials and how do we get

557
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:37,240
the most number of people from diverse backgrounds onto those trials?

558
00:34:37,240 --> 00:34:40,880
And that is a science and that is a skill set.

559
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:45,320
And that is something that as you guys even perfect, I think that you will be the first

560
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:51,020
generation of people who will be widely recruited in the context of your ability to do that.

561
00:34:51,020 --> 00:34:52,020
Because you know what?

562
00:34:52,020 --> 00:34:56,280
Turns out the FDA and other people are going to expect big pharma companies and others

563
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:58,460
to actually have diversity on a clinical trial.

564
00:34:58,460 --> 00:35:03,220
So interesting, it's building the workforce that we are going to need for tomorrow.

565
00:35:03,220 --> 00:35:05,440
That's the best part of this.

566
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:06,440
That's beautiful.

567
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,000
That's so awesome.

568
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,000
And the innovation of it is awesome.

569
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:15,800
Actually, as you were talking, I'm like, you're kind of building the bridge as you are like

570
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:17,800
speeding on it.

571
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,800
But I got y'all.

572
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:21,800
Y'all make me look good.

573
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,120
Y'all be coming up with these trials.

574
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:29,120
The other day I saw I was actually one of the scholars was actually doing his work and

575
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:34,280
he said, and so I automatically had this thing about I wanted to get more African Americans

576
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:38,000
on it because this trial of prostate cancer until in my head I was doing this protocol.

577
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,880
And so I integrated the protocol with my protocol.

578
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:45,160
Now I don't show that to you know the drug, but I'm just showing you Dr. Wynn that here's

579
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,200
from the very first step I was like, well, these neighborhoods I've had obstacles and

580
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:49,840
so this is what I've not needed to do.

581
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:51,880
And I said, you should write a paper about that.

582
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,640
That is the beauty of what's going down.

583
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:55,640
Yeah.

584
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:56,640
Yeah.

585
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:57,640
Y'all doing it.

586
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,360
You know me, I'm just, you know, I just, you know, I set it up.

587
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:02,440
I ain't the one, you know, I like Moses.

588
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:04,440
I ain't going to get to the promised land with y'all.

589
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,960
Y'all gonna get there, but I'm going to be so proud when you do.

590
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:12,720
And it's, it's what you're speaking to is that just the power of community and all our

591
00:36:12,720 --> 00:36:16,320
different roles, but how important we all are in moving the workforce.

592
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:17,320
No, it's phenomenal.

593
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:19,320
I'm telling you it's like Wu-Tang.

594
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:20,320
It ain't about me.

595
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:21,320
It's Wu-Tang.

596
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:22,320
Oh, he talk about all day.

597
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:28,440
Oh, Dr. Wynn, it's been, it's been such a pleasure talking with you.

598
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:29,920
We're coming to the end of the show.

599
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,920
And I want to ask you, we've said a lot and then there are things we haven't even talked

600
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:38,880
about, but you know, just thinking about just wrapping up our conversation.

601
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:46,280
What is one thing that you feel like is left unsaid that you want to share with our audience?

602
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,880
Drake started from the bottom.

603
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:49,880
Now we're here.

604
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:50,880
You know what I'm saying?

605
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,680
He started from the bottom, now the whole crew's here.

606
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:54,920
Like let's rise.

607
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:56,240
We turning it up.

608
00:36:56,240 --> 00:36:57,240
Let's make it happen.

609
00:36:57,240 --> 00:37:01,560
And the reality is I ain't worried about a little white noise and all the other stuff

610
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:02,800
and the distractions.

611
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:03,920
Let's get focused.

612
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:04,920
Let's get locked in.

613
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:09,960
Let's understand that the success that we have is being watched and the success we have

614
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,320
will build on other successes of the future.

615
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:16,320
And in fact, to do that, one must have courage.

616
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,600
And with courage comes vulnerability and sometimes risk.

617
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:20,940
But so what?

618
00:37:20,940 --> 00:37:24,960
Because if somebody had to have courage for us to get us this far, somebody had to have

619
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,860
the courage to say something to make sure that our medical schools and our residencies

620
00:37:28,860 --> 00:37:30,400
and our fellowships are better.

621
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,100
Let's continue that courage.

622
00:37:32,100 --> 00:37:33,100
You know what I mean?

623
00:37:33,100 --> 00:37:35,320
Stand up, stand strong, show up.

624
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:36,320
Let's do it.

625
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,480
Because actually our people in our communities are banking on the fact that we can do this.

626
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:44,680
So you know, I'm just like, let's get it done.

627
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:46,600
That's a perfect place to end.

628
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,240
And I feel like you should stand up now and take a bow.

629
00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:54,640
Girl, look, I'm just a little fella trying to do a little something.

630
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:55,640
So that's all.

631
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,560
Dr. Nguyen, thank you so much for being on the show.

632
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:00,680
It's been a pleasure to have you.

633
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:01,680
You know what?

634
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:02,680
Thank you for having me.

635
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,920
You know, much respect and I'm honored to be on the show and looking forward to the

636
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:08,720
great things that you're going to do.

637
00:38:08,720 --> 00:38:09,720
Thanks, Dr. Nguyen.

638
00:38:09,720 --> 00:38:10,720
All right, everybody.

639
00:38:10,720 --> 00:38:22,120
We'll see you next time on the Clinician Researcher podcast.

640
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:27,480
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic

641
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:32,920
clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they

642
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:34,280
have a mentor.

643
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:40,240
If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.

644
00:38:40,240 --> 00:38:42,120
Someone else needs to hear it.

645
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:46,160
So take a minute right now and share it.

646
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:51,640
As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation

647
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:57,600
of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.