Creating writing structures with Dr. Jia Ng

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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills

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to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.

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When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find

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that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research

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program.

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Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.

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However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.

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For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians

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the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.

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Hello everyone.

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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast.

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I'm your host, Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is such a pleasure to be here.

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I am super excited about today's episode because we have a very, very, very special guest who's

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going to talk to us about how to create writing structures to help you succeed as a clinician

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researcher.

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And so without further ado, I'm going to have her introduce herself.

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Gia, please introduce yourself to the audience.

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Hi, thank you so much for having me today.

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And yes, I am Jia.

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I am a physician researcher and a nephrologist in New York.

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And I also started a company called PublishMD where I help clinicians publish research papers

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and try to build their authority and also achieve the academic goals.

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So I'm here to help you achieve that.

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I love it, Gia.

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So you're a nephrologist, you're a clinician researcher, and you help other people in getting

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their research, moving their research forward as well.

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So awesome.

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I want to start from your journey because the clinician part of you and the part of

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you that's the nephrologist makes sense, right?

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It's the trip we all did to get to the specialty that we got to.

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But at what point did you make that transition from clinician as a nephrologist into a research

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researcher?

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How did that happen for you?

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So yeah, I was trained in Malaysia and in Ireland and where a lot of emphasis was on

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clinical work.

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And when I joined residency, then in the program, we had a lot of quality improvement projects

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assigned to us where each year, the second year will meet the first and third year, we'll

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do a group project.

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And because of that, that exposure, it made me feel interested about asking questions,

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asking questions to solve clinical problems, not just one-on-one basis, but for a bigger

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impact.

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But these projects, even though they were meaningful, they were never published because

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it was usually not good enough.

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And I decided that I needed more training.

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And when I did my fellowship, I took a research fellowship and did my master's in clinical

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epidemiology.

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And then I thought that was enough.

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Throughout the three years I did my master's, my fellowship, when I graduated with my master's,

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all the research done, I had zero publication.

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And when you look up trying to do a research position, they don't hire a researcher who

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can't publish their science.

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And so it was a lot of clinical job offer, but I got lucky actually that somebody, my

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current institution invested in me and they said, you know what, I'm going to give you

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three years, 50% protected time just to jumpstart, improve yourself.

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And because there was my second chance, I told myself, I'm not going to do the same

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thing as before.

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I'm going to do everything different to make sure I can prove myself that they invested

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the right person.

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And so within two years, that was a time where there was a mindset shift, that was a major

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change in myself, where a lot of things happened.

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Writing was actually the moment I could not finish a project, I can't publish a paper.

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So that was the first investment.

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Once I did that, then it snowballed and then I started writing grants and got NIH funding.

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So that's where the snowball happened and now I'm really into research.

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That's super awesome.

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I hear so many things in the things you're saying.

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So number one, you weren't satisfied with your role as a clinician.

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You saw that there were gaps that needed to be filled and you decided that you wanted

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to be one of those people to fill those gaps.

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And I think that you echo the sentiments of many clinicians who are like, this is not

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enough.

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We're not helping patients.

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There's more opportunity here.

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And so you took a step further and you did the training, but you didn't have enough training.

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And then when you got to the place where you're looking for jobs, you were finding out that

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you're not having published actually was working against you.

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And what's interesting is that you did have this opportunity to do a 50% protected time

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position, but you really took the initiative and you made a substantial investment in yourself

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to make this research and the research writing piece work out.

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And I want to ask, what did that investment look like if you don't mind sharing?

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Yeah.

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So investment, sometimes we only think about money, but it was time, money, energy, all

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three things together.

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And it means that I am not working 40 hours, 40 hour weeks.

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I'm working 80 hour weeks.

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The extra 40 outside of my clinical work is about improving my writing.

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So I took courses, any courses I could land my hand off, let my get access to, I will

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always join coaching calls.

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Every time they ask for, Oh, bring feedback.

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I will always bring.

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Additionally, I will also do practice.

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I will do deliberate practice on my own writing.

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People will say, Oh, how do you practice writing?

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I actually have like techniques.

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I found a book and I was practicing, I'm doing copywork just to download the style of writing.

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And these additional things I was doing at the site, because I felt that writing was

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a core research skill because you can have the data.

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But if you can't transform the data into a compelling story, all your research, three

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years worth of work is useless.

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So I felt that if I just need to put the energy into this piece, this big piece, you know,

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that was the first thing I could think of.

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There were other pieces, but I didn't want to be distracted.

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Let me get paper out.

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So that was what I started with.

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Absolutely.

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Thank you for sharing that.

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This idea of time, money, and energy.

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It's not just money.

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You always think, Oh, it's money.

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And sometimes we shy away from that, but it is the time, it is the energy.

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And what you're seeing is you work extra hard.

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You didn't say, well, my work week is a 40 hour work week.

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I'm done.

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But you said, this is the extra training that I need.

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And you made an investment to do it.

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And it sounds like your hard work paid off and you have all these publications now behind

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you and you're actually even teaching people how to publish.

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And so I want to just talk about that.

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How is it that you went from finishing these programs where you hadn't published anything

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to now where you are actually showing people how to succeed in publishing?

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How did that happen?

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So it is through these programs, I realized that technique is one thing.

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It's like how to write it.

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I realized the biggest problem is the mindset in how you structure the time.

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So that was actually the biggest piece.

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Coming from a clinician black background, it meant that you have a lot of free time.

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When you have free time, if you don't structure the time, you are going to end up checking

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epic inbox.

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You can check email.

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You spend too much time speaking on a phone with a patient for an hour, but with no real

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progress.

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And so there was a mindset shift, I would say, is embracing myself as a professional

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writer.

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A professional researcher is a professional writer.

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I'm being paid to publish my research work.

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So I need to take writing seriously.

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So I start writing during work hours.

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It has to be daily.

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I treat that as a clinic.

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Like if it's a clinic, I will always show up for my patient.

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I'm never late.

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I never cancel on them.

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So I treat my writing sessions as clinic appointment.

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So once I did that, I realized, oh, it's actually not just the writing.

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I need to move the needle every time.

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And as I talk to many people, as a coach people, that is actually the major thing.

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They always say they have no time.

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But when you break down what they do, oh, they haven't even put in the time to write.

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They're hoping to find a sliver of time.

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They hope to find inspiration.

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But when you're a professional, you don't wait for inspiration.

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You do the work.

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So I think that big mindset shift was key in my success.

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And when I talk to people, I realize that's the biggest thing.

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That's really great.

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I love what you're talking about.

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It's not just the writing because we're writers.

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We're all writing, right?

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We're at a writing clinic notes all the time.

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But it's the process of writing, the process of creating space for your writing and creating

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space to move your work forward.

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And without that space, the work doesn't move forward.

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And so I love the way you talk about creating structures around your writing and making

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sure that you're not waiting for inspiration, but you're actually creating space to be working

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so inspiration can hit you while you're in progress.

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I wonder if you can speak to what does that writing structure look like for you?

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And how does someone who's never had a writing structure move from no writing structure into

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writing structure?

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The two things first is there must be a commitment.

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First mindset is always must be there.

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You must have a commitment.

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You must not give excuses.

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We you know, before I went into 50 percent, I was operating.

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I was still working.

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I tried to squeeze my clinical work 50 percent.

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I tried to squeeze it into 25.

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So I am pretending I'm working as a 75 percent research.

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I put so much research work in that same amount of time.

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And in the commitment to putting research as the first thing, that is important commitment.

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Second you need to show up.

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Show up for the sessions that you have scheduled for.

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Number third thing is consistency.

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So I am I'm a believer in if you if it's something important enough, you should do it every day

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because it just builds the momentum.

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It just builds a habit.

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And when you do it every day, it just means you don't have to think you don't have to

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say, oh, should I write today?

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Should I not write today?

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He's like, OK, it's 10 a.m.

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It's my writing time.

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I don't have to make a decision.

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It's my time to do it.

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So at the beginning, put artificial structures if you need get accountability buddies if

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you need.

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But I would say commitment first, show up in consistency.

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These are the three things we need in place as a recipe.

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Then you can start building a habit.

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Thank you, Jia.

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Now, one of the things I hear is really and you talked about this with the mindset shift

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where clinicians at least primarily that was our is our training.

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And so the clinical things tend to pull us a lot.

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And so in order for us to move to the space of doing research fully, we have to take on

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a different identity as writers, as professional writers.

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And it has to be part of our daytime job.

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It's not the kind of thing we're doing in the background where where there's nobody

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and nobody's looking.

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It's really part of what we do actively.

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And so I wonder what's the biggest resistance that you encounter in your clients when you're

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trying to get them to set these structures into place and also have this mindset shift?

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I'm so glad you asked this question.

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I given this advice so many times and the number one objection, they will always say,

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but my patients need I need to fit the patient in, you know, a few bad my patient.

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I came in to become a doctor.

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I can't say no to my patient.

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And in telling the then I was say this.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Your patients come first.

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When you sit down and write a paper and publish your science, you are helping not just one

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patient.

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You're helping a thousand patients, your future patients.

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That's the impact.

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So don't think that you are saying no to one patient.

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You're actually saying no to a thousand patients when you are saying no to your brain.

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So I think not everybody buys that.

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But I think you need to buy that as a researcher.

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You go into research for impact, not just one.

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We do love the one on one.

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That's where we still keep on the clinical work.

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But we want to do more.

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Researchers want to do more impact and move science forward and having this mindset should

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sit down.

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I am helping my thousands of patients who are in the future.

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That is the biggest mindset.

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I love it.

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I love it.

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And also, I think one of the things you point to is that we're not here just to dabble a

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little bit in research.

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Like, I'll just do a project.

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Let's do a project there.

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We're really leading change because the reason we've gone into research is because we see

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gaps.

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If clinical care was perfect, then we wouldn't even need to be doing research.

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But we're doing research because we see gaps.

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And so in a sense, it's an obligation, having found answers to some of those gaps, to let

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other people know so that people can change clinical practice.

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So in a sense, it's an obligation not just to the patients before us, but really, yes,

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as you say, future patients.

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And it's a different way of thinking, but definitely an important mindset shift to have.

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I wonder for you, as you are now going from coaching clients and really helping people

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move their research forward, who are the clients who've had the biggest successes and why?

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So the biggest successes are those who show up.

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Those who show up are calls.

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Those who go through the program, like the digital course, some people will buy, but

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they never respond to emails anymore.

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And then you see them, they have never logged in.

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You buy it.

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But some people believe that just because they buy something, they get results.

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You actually need to go in and do the work.

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And research is not easy.

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And you actually need to put in the work.

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Some reality check there.

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People are hoping to join the program and get easily fixed, but the jump between a clinician

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to researcher, the skill set is so different that there are so many layers and so many

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pieces you need to build.

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And it's not like you just need one piece.

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You need the threshold of, I need these six skills together.

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Then I can publish a paper.

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And those who don't show up usually are because, oh, I only did one piece and I don't see a

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result.

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But the people who get success are, they fill in the writing piece.

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They also learn the research, they know how to ask the research question.

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They learn the process of doing everything.

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They complete the project.

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That's also important.

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So these are the few components that make somebody successful.

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Thank you for sharing that.

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One of the things that brings to mind is when you think about the people that we are competing

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against, so to speak, when we submit for funding, they're PhDs who've been doing research for

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years and years.

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And they've not just been doing research on the side, they've been fully doing research

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as part of their whole experience.

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And so as you talk about, it's a whole shift.

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There's a whole different skill set that's needed.

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And it really does take time and investment.

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And I wonder if the challenges people may experience has to do with, well, I haven't

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created the time and the structures to move this forward.

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But if I just pay for a program, it's going to fix everything.

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And as you said, it's like making the investment is one thing, but that's just an investment

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of money.

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Time is necessary as well.

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And that's the theory as well.

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So it's a whole package.

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Yeah, it's a whole package.

296
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Yeah.

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What about people who say, well, I have a great mentor.

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I don't need this.

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What would you say to them?

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I love this question because let me share a quick story.

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So when I was writing my grant, my research grant, I have excellent mentors.

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I have one who is in the right space and a different institution.

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I have one who's so...

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I have like a whole team of amazing mentors to guide me.

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And yet I paid for a $5,000 bootcamp that lasted only for eight weeks to write my research

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grant.

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And my reasoning, my reasoning was they are good, but I'm not good enough.

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So for them to help me, they need to tip...

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I want to go from good to great or great to extraordinary.

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I want my grant application to be excellent.

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But if I'm only like okay average, my mentor can only pull me up to good and that's good.

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So I felt that I needed to bring myself to great so that they can bring my application

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from great to extraordinary because I don't want to waste time.

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I want to submit the best grant I have in the very first try so that I can get it.

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You know, that's my goal.

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I hear people say, oh, you know, key grants, you get it in the second or third try.

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I don't want to waste time.

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I want to go for the big kill.

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I want to get it first time.

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And because of that mindset, I do things differently.

321
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I need to push everything.

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I need to optimize every part as I could.

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Mentor is one of them.

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My own skill is another one of them.

325
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And so because of that two-parry, I did get my grant the first time around.

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And so I felt that the $5,000 was worth the money because, you know, $5,000 to get a million

327
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dollars, that's a huge ROI if you think about it that way.

328
00:18:07,900 --> 00:18:09,900
No, that's super awesome, Jia.

329
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And it's so funny.

330
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It's like, wait a minute, you paid $5,000?

331
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What?

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What about people who are like, well, if my institution is not going to pay it, why should

333
00:18:18,980 --> 00:18:19,980
I pay it?

334
00:18:19,980 --> 00:18:22,940
What do you have to say about that?

335
00:18:22,940 --> 00:18:23,940
Great question.

336
00:18:23,940 --> 00:18:32,940
So when you pay for programs yourself, you keep the skill.

337
00:18:32,940 --> 00:18:36,780
It doesn't matter who pays for it, but at the end, who comes up with the skill?

338
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I take it back.

339
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:43,260
When I pay for it myself, it means I believe in myself.

340
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When I believe in myself, the most important thing, we have to be sold on ourselves.

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If our programs are not sold on us and not willing to pay for us, we have to be sold

342
00:18:52,740 --> 00:18:58,020
on ourselves, on our goals, on our ambition that we are willing to pay for ourselves.

343
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If we can do it, then we can achieve it.

344
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But if we are not even sold, then if nobody's going to pay, that means you're not going

345
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to invest in yourself.

346
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No, I'm going to do whatever I need to get there.

347
00:19:10,140 --> 00:19:14,900
So yeah, so to me, and at the end, you hold the skill.

348
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It doesn't matter who paid for it.

349
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At the end, you learn through this and you keep the skill and you can bring your skill

350
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wherever at the institution, wherever you go.

351
00:19:23,900 --> 00:19:26,260
Thank you for speaking to that, Gia.

352
00:19:26,260 --> 00:19:31,140
I think one of the things that's so important and I think can be challenging for us because

353
00:19:31,140 --> 00:19:34,260
as clinicians, we've gone through this training where people tell us, this is what you're

354
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supposed to do and this is what you end up with.

355
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This is what you're supposed to do.

356
00:19:37,540 --> 00:19:38,940
This is what you end up with.

357
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When we start our faculty careers, we are leading our own careers.

358
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But sometimes that transition doesn't happen for people and they're still very much like,

359
00:19:46,940 --> 00:19:48,620
well, what do you want me to do?

360
00:19:48,620 --> 00:19:50,140
How do you want me to be?

361
00:19:50,140 --> 00:19:53,940
But really what happens when you decide, wait a minute, I'm doing this for me.

362
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This is what I want to succeed in for myself.

363
00:19:56,300 --> 00:20:00,780
Then you don't wait for someone to say, oh, I might be able to give you a couple of thousand

364
00:20:00,780 --> 00:20:04,420
dollars or I don't really think that program is for you.

365
00:20:04,420 --> 00:20:07,340
You're making decisions because you're the one who's going to benefit.

366
00:20:07,340 --> 00:20:08,940
I love the way you put that.

367
00:20:08,940 --> 00:20:10,460
It's like, this is for me.

368
00:20:10,460 --> 00:20:14,740
And at the end, I get to keep the skills and these skills matter to me because I'm going

369
00:20:14,740 --> 00:20:18,060
to do this again and again, and I'm going to coach other people to do it.

370
00:20:18,060 --> 00:20:20,580
And so of course, make the investment.

371
00:20:20,580 --> 00:20:25,980
And so I really appreciate that you shared that because even for me, when I first started,

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there was this sense of like, well, okay, if they don't feel like I need it, maybe I

373
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don't need it, but it's not for them.

374
00:20:32,140 --> 00:20:33,140
It's for me.

375
00:20:33,140 --> 00:20:36,220
I wonder if there's anything else you want to add to that.

376
00:20:36,220 --> 00:20:38,220
No, no, absolutely.

377
00:20:38,220 --> 00:20:39,220
It's not for them.

378
00:20:39,220 --> 00:20:40,220
It's for me.

379
00:20:40,220 --> 00:20:45,020
They may want to invest in you, but you have to be the person who really needs to invest

380
00:20:45,020 --> 00:20:46,620
it is yourself.

381
00:20:46,620 --> 00:20:49,340
You need to be invested in yourself.

382
00:20:49,340 --> 00:20:50,340
Absolutely.

383
00:20:50,340 --> 00:20:51,340
Absolutely.

384
00:20:51,340 --> 00:20:53,940
So Gia, you know, it's funny.

385
00:20:53,940 --> 00:20:57,540
I feel like with all of your, all you've been saying, it's almost like, well, that's so

386
00:20:57,540 --> 00:20:59,060
easy for Gia.

387
00:20:59,060 --> 00:21:01,380
She's clearly sailed through life.

388
00:21:01,380 --> 00:21:06,900
I want you to speak to the challenges you've experienced along the way first for yourself

389
00:21:06,900 --> 00:21:11,620
in making that transition and also as someone who's now coaching other people and making

390
00:21:11,620 --> 00:21:13,620
that transition.

391
00:21:13,620 --> 00:21:20,740
Yeah, I think my biggest one, the biggest obstacle was when I finished my fellowship

392
00:21:20,740 --> 00:21:25,580
and couldn't find a proper job, a research job, right?

393
00:21:25,580 --> 00:21:31,700
I was hoping my institution would keep me as faculty, but I could sense that they were

394
00:21:31,700 --> 00:21:37,020
not willing to keep me because I don't have anything to show for.

395
00:21:37,020 --> 00:21:38,540
So that was one.

396
00:21:38,540 --> 00:21:45,060
Even with when I first joined the faculty, I was worried, what if I can't, you know,

397
00:21:45,060 --> 00:21:47,180
three years, what if I can't get any publication?

398
00:21:47,180 --> 00:21:49,140
What if I can't get grants?

399
00:21:49,140 --> 00:21:54,500
So these were also obstacles I had.

400
00:21:54,500 --> 00:22:02,540
I think finally for the coaching clients, the other obstacles I see are the misaligned

401
00:22:02,540 --> 00:22:09,500
incentives that we do see in the system, not just personal, where you were told that you

402
00:22:09,500 --> 00:22:19,380
need to help with papers, but you're not given the time or the space to do scholarly activity.

403
00:22:19,380 --> 00:22:27,140
And then, you know, anything, they keep putting patients, more service time on the surface.

404
00:22:27,140 --> 00:22:32,460
They say, oh yeah, we promote people to become associate professor, but there's no time.

405
00:22:32,460 --> 00:22:37,300
Having said that, we have to accept what we have in that situation.

406
00:22:37,300 --> 00:22:40,020
You either get out of it or you take charge.

407
00:22:40,020 --> 00:22:44,500
You know, if you can't change it, if you can't change your surrounding, you change yourself.

408
00:22:44,500 --> 00:22:48,260
So see what you can do to get out of the situation.

409
00:22:48,260 --> 00:22:52,900
And one final thing I would say as well is clinicians sometimes forget what the true

410
00:22:52,900 --> 00:22:55,100
metric is to be a researcher.

411
00:22:55,100 --> 00:22:58,980
The real metric is publication in grant funding.

412
00:22:58,980 --> 00:23:03,460
If you don't get that, it doesn't matter how good your teaching is, it doesn't matter

413
00:23:03,460 --> 00:23:06,420
how good your evaluations are.

414
00:23:06,420 --> 00:23:13,020
If your institution's metric for academia or promotion is publication, you need to know

415
00:23:13,020 --> 00:23:14,260
the rules of the game.

416
00:23:14,260 --> 00:23:16,540
And sometimes people don't want to look at that.

417
00:23:16,540 --> 00:23:17,540
They ignore it.

418
00:23:17,540 --> 00:23:20,820
And then five years later, they realize that, oh, I did not reach my metric.

419
00:23:20,820 --> 00:23:22,900
And so what you have nothing to show for.

420
00:23:22,900 --> 00:23:27,820
So that is kind of also another barrier, not knowing the rules of the game.

421
00:23:27,820 --> 00:23:32,300
You know, when you're joining any game, you need to know how do you score, what the rules

422
00:23:32,300 --> 00:23:33,300
are.

423
00:23:33,300 --> 00:23:34,300
Yeah.

424
00:23:34,300 --> 00:23:35,300
I love that.

425
00:23:35,300 --> 00:23:36,300
I love that.

426
00:23:36,300 --> 00:23:38,180
I have to, you know, it reminds me of something I hear often.

427
00:23:38,180 --> 00:23:40,660
People say, well, we want you to be a team player.

428
00:23:40,660 --> 00:23:44,820
And you know, usually I have to say, I feel like that's often said of women who are sometimes

429
00:23:44,820 --> 00:23:48,420
not given enough resources and they're like, just be a team player, just accept what you're

430
00:23:48,420 --> 00:23:49,420
given.

431
00:23:49,420 --> 00:23:53,160
And I love it because it's like, what is the game we're playing?

432
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:54,900
And how do we know when we win?

433
00:23:54,900 --> 00:23:58,020
It's so important to ask that question, what is the game?

434
00:23:58,020 --> 00:24:02,500
Because sometimes being a team player means, well, you let the other people who we've selected

435
00:24:02,500 --> 00:24:06,240
out to be successful win, and then you support them.

436
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,580
And if it's fine, that's what you want to do.

437
00:24:08,580 --> 00:24:12,100
But if really what you're doing is leading your own research and leading your research

438
00:24:12,100 --> 00:24:16,900
program, then you want to make sure that you're playing a game that makes sense for you.

439
00:24:16,900 --> 00:24:19,740
And then at the end you win and you know when you win.

440
00:24:19,740 --> 00:24:23,220
And so I love where you started, where you were like, when you were first looking for

441
00:24:23,220 --> 00:24:25,380
a job, it wasn't the job you wanted.

442
00:24:25,380 --> 00:24:30,500
At least you didn't find the job that really supported you as a clinician researcher.

443
00:24:30,500 --> 00:24:34,980
And you went looking for what that job would be.

444
00:24:34,980 --> 00:24:38,340
And I appreciate the advice you give where it's like, well, you have a choice.

445
00:24:38,340 --> 00:24:42,340
You may not, you can't control your institution and whether they choose to support you or

446
00:24:42,340 --> 00:24:45,140
not, but you can choose how you respond to it.

447
00:24:45,140 --> 00:24:49,420
Whether you're going to stay at the institution and find other ways to support yourself, or

448
00:24:49,420 --> 00:24:54,180
you're going to choose a different institution that actually provides you the support that

449
00:24:54,180 --> 00:24:55,220
you need.

450
00:24:55,220 --> 00:25:00,700
And so what I hear you saying is that we have agency, we are in charge of our careers, we

451
00:25:00,700 --> 00:25:02,340
are leading our careers.

452
00:25:02,340 --> 00:25:07,180
And just because other people say no to us doesn't mean we should say no to ourselves.

453
00:25:07,180 --> 00:25:08,180
Absolutely.

454
00:25:08,180 --> 00:25:14,360
I want to riff on your saying about team player too, because that's such a great point.

455
00:25:14,360 --> 00:25:16,300
How our division works.

456
00:25:16,300 --> 00:25:24,340
When I do research, I'm being a team player, because how we view our division is one person

457
00:25:24,340 --> 00:25:30,820
does oncology, one person does stone, and we all have our own roles to bring the whole

458
00:25:30,820 --> 00:25:31,820
division up.

459
00:25:31,820 --> 00:25:36,420
So my role was actually to be a researcher so that we can bring up the prestige.

460
00:25:36,420 --> 00:25:37,420
We can bring up.

461
00:25:37,420 --> 00:25:41,200
So when I say no to clinic patients, when I say, I know I can't do so much service time

462
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,140
because I need to get grants.

463
00:25:43,140 --> 00:25:49,460
I need to get, it builds up the prestige and builds up the publication of the numbers of

464
00:25:49,460 --> 00:25:50,460
the division.

465
00:25:50,460 --> 00:25:52,340
I am being a team player.

466
00:25:52,340 --> 00:25:57,300
So we can't always think about team player being just do the things equally, but what

467
00:25:57,300 --> 00:25:59,700
are we doing as our role?

468
00:25:59,700 --> 00:26:03,580
What is our intended role as a true team player?

469
00:26:03,580 --> 00:26:04,580
I love it.

470
00:26:04,580 --> 00:26:05,580
I love it.

471
00:26:05,580 --> 00:26:08,700
I want to speak more to that because it's like, if we think about, let's say a game

472
00:26:08,700 --> 00:26:11,020
of basketball and I don't even really play basketball.

473
00:26:11,020 --> 00:26:16,100
So it's not me, but there are people whose job it is to defend and their job is a little

474
00:26:16,100 --> 00:26:19,540
bit different from those whose job it is to score.

475
00:26:19,540 --> 00:26:22,700
So that for the people who are defending to say, well, we're going to leave our defending

476
00:26:22,700 --> 00:26:24,220
and go do this work.

477
00:26:24,220 --> 00:26:26,020
They're not going to do it as well.

478
00:26:26,020 --> 00:26:30,820
And so for us too, it's that, well, if this is the work we've been brought on to do, if

479
00:26:30,820 --> 00:26:34,260
this is the work we want to do, we've really got to succeed well.

480
00:26:34,260 --> 00:26:38,380
And so when somebody says, I didn't see as many patients as I did, you have to take a

481
00:26:38,380 --> 00:26:42,860
step back and say, what is it that I'm uniquely qualified to do?

482
00:26:42,860 --> 00:26:44,420
And am I doing that?

483
00:26:44,420 --> 00:26:47,660
Or am I doing something that somebody else actually could do for me?

484
00:26:47,660 --> 00:26:49,900
Somebody else could easily do and take my place.

485
00:26:49,900 --> 00:26:54,340
And I think that's really important because in your field, there are not many researchers

486
00:26:54,340 --> 00:26:57,580
that are moving the work that you're moving forward.

487
00:26:57,580 --> 00:27:01,660
And I bet at your institution, if you stopped your program of research, there are not many

488
00:27:01,660 --> 00:27:04,220
people who could step in and just take over.

489
00:27:04,220 --> 00:27:10,900
And so it's important for us to recognize the value we bring and to protect that value.

490
00:27:10,900 --> 00:27:11,900
Yes.

491
00:27:11,900 --> 00:27:12,900
Yes.

492
00:27:12,900 --> 00:27:13,900
Yes.

493
00:27:13,900 --> 00:27:14,900
And I love the basketball analogy.

494
00:27:14,900 --> 00:27:15,900
I never even thought of it.

495
00:27:15,900 --> 00:27:22,700
Like, yeah, the person who shoots, the person who defends, they all have to feel the weight.

496
00:27:22,700 --> 00:27:23,700
Absolutely.

497
00:27:23,700 --> 00:27:28,420
I feel like you've just shared so many wonderful nuggets of wisdom.

498
00:27:28,420 --> 00:27:32,500
And I wonder if there's a clinician right now who's sitting there saying, well, no one's

499
00:27:32,500 --> 00:27:35,260
supporting me, no one's providing resources for me.

500
00:27:35,260 --> 00:27:40,420
I really want to succeed as a clinician researcher or as a physician scientist.

501
00:27:40,420 --> 00:27:44,100
What advice would you have for them?

502
00:27:44,100 --> 00:27:49,100
My first advice would be think about the why.

503
00:27:49,100 --> 00:27:52,100
Like why you want to go into research in the first place?

504
00:27:52,100 --> 00:27:54,940
Is it just you want a pre-publication here and there?

505
00:27:54,940 --> 00:27:59,380
Really, I think if you want to really do research, you have to think about impact.

506
00:27:59,380 --> 00:28:02,020
Who am I going to change?

507
00:28:02,020 --> 00:28:03,020
What is it?

508
00:28:03,020 --> 00:28:04,020
It doesn't matter how.

509
00:28:04,020 --> 00:28:06,540
In fact, you should be thinking big.

510
00:28:06,540 --> 00:28:12,660
The bigger you think, the easier it is for you to overcome the obstacles.

511
00:28:12,660 --> 00:28:17,740
Because if your goal is so small, every small obstacle will get in the way.

512
00:28:17,740 --> 00:28:22,340
But if your goal is so huge, it needs to be able to bulldoze the obstacles.

513
00:28:22,340 --> 00:28:23,340
Right?

514
00:28:23,340 --> 00:28:25,140
Oh, people got rejected.

515
00:28:25,140 --> 00:28:28,140
But my goal is so big, I can work through this.

516
00:28:28,140 --> 00:28:32,180
So your goal is just, I just want to maybe get one or two publications.

517
00:28:32,180 --> 00:28:33,180
All right.

518
00:28:33,180 --> 00:28:34,180
Oh, well.

519
00:28:34,180 --> 00:28:35,180
So you need to have this huge goal.

520
00:28:35,180 --> 00:28:36,860
And it has to be so deep.

521
00:28:36,860 --> 00:28:38,900
You truly believe in yourself.

522
00:28:38,900 --> 00:28:42,540
Once you do that, then you can work through all the obstacles.

523
00:28:42,540 --> 00:28:45,060
Because research is not to your career.

524
00:28:45,060 --> 00:28:46,540
We're talking about 30-year career.

525
00:28:46,540 --> 00:28:48,700
We are trying to move to science.

526
00:28:48,700 --> 00:28:53,340
You're trying to help patients in thousands.

527
00:28:53,340 --> 00:28:54,340
Thank you, Jia.

528
00:28:54,340 --> 00:28:55,380
I love the way you put it.

529
00:28:55,380 --> 00:28:57,700
It's about what impact do you want to have?

530
00:28:57,700 --> 00:29:03,380
I think as clinicians, we're very big on just helping patients be better, helping patients

531
00:29:03,380 --> 00:29:07,100
manage their disease, or if possible, get a cure from their disease.

532
00:29:07,100 --> 00:29:11,180
And so when we go into research, we have a big picture of the kind of change we want

533
00:29:11,180 --> 00:29:12,180
to move forward.

534
00:29:12,180 --> 00:29:15,380
And in a sense, there's an obligation to that future goal.

535
00:29:15,380 --> 00:29:19,820
If you can get there, think about how many patients, how many lives you'll transform

536
00:29:19,820 --> 00:29:22,660
when we're here and beyond the grave.

537
00:29:22,660 --> 00:29:25,540
Our impact continues whether we're here or not.

538
00:29:25,540 --> 00:29:30,780
And if it's so big, and it is big for so many of us, then that's the goal we keep in front

539
00:29:30,780 --> 00:29:31,780
of us.

540
00:29:31,780 --> 00:29:33,860
And we don't say, oh, there's a little bit of an obstacle here.

541
00:29:33,860 --> 00:29:38,900
We say, no, if I accomplish this thing that I want to do, it's going to be so impactful.

542
00:29:38,900 --> 00:29:40,900
It's going to be so awesome.

543
00:29:40,900 --> 00:29:44,940
I'm going to look back on my career, and I'm going to be so excited that I made the investment,

544
00:29:44,940 --> 00:29:46,700
that I made the sacrifice.

545
00:29:46,700 --> 00:29:49,100
And so absolutely, I love that you put it that way.

546
00:29:49,100 --> 00:29:51,340
It's like, think about your impact.

547
00:29:51,340 --> 00:29:52,340
And it does matter.

548
00:29:52,340 --> 00:29:59,180
It matters that we are aligned with maximizing our value in achieving the impact that we

549
00:29:59,180 --> 00:30:01,180
came to achieve.

550
00:30:01,180 --> 00:30:04,820
No, thank you.

551
00:30:04,820 --> 00:30:09,900
I really appreciate your coming on the show and talking to our audience.

552
00:30:09,900 --> 00:30:12,420
And I just feel like you just shared so many great insights.

553
00:30:12,420 --> 00:30:16,020
And I want to really thank you for being on the show.

554
00:30:16,020 --> 00:30:18,300
Oh, my pleasure.

555
00:30:18,300 --> 00:30:23,700
It is so good talking to you, because I feel like nobody's listening to me, nobody understands.

556
00:30:23,700 --> 00:30:29,500
And you get it, because you and I have transitioned from recognition to research site and have

557
00:30:29,500 --> 00:30:33,420
seen the struggles and the obstacles.

558
00:30:33,420 --> 00:30:38,220
But we did not forget that the whole point of doing this is for impact.

559
00:30:38,220 --> 00:30:42,580
So I really feel like this is a message we all need to be talking about.

560
00:30:42,580 --> 00:30:43,580
Absolutely.

561
00:30:43,580 --> 00:30:44,580
Absolutely.

562
00:30:44,580 --> 00:30:45,580
Thank you, Jia.

563
00:30:45,580 --> 00:30:51,100
And hey, for those of you who are listening, if you've heard this podcast episode and you're

564
00:30:51,100 --> 00:30:55,460
like, somebody else needs to hear this, I want to ask you, I want to invite you to share

565
00:30:55,460 --> 00:31:00,460
this episode with as many people as possible who need this inspiration that comes from

566
00:31:00,460 --> 00:31:01,740
Jia today.

567
00:31:01,740 --> 00:31:06,460
And if you're a mentor and you're like, well, one mentee or two may benefit from hearing

568
00:31:06,460 --> 00:31:10,620
this, please definitely share with them, because there are so many clinicians who have a desire

569
00:31:10,620 --> 00:31:14,420
to make great impact, and they don't know the first place to start.

570
00:31:14,420 --> 00:31:18,780
Or they settled into a clinical career that's not really fulfilling them because they're

571
00:31:18,780 --> 00:31:20,580
not doing the research piece.

572
00:31:20,580 --> 00:31:24,760
So please share this podcast episode with someone else today so that their lives can

573
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:26,100
be transformed as well.

574
00:31:26,100 --> 00:31:27,100
All right.

575
00:31:27,100 --> 00:31:29,260
It's been such a pleasure talking to you all today.

576
00:31:29,260 --> 00:31:34,220
I want to thank you for listening, and I look forward to talking with you again next time.

577
00:31:34,220 --> 00:31:43,620
Take care.

578
00:31:43,620 --> 00:31:48,940
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast, where academic

579
00:31:48,940 --> 00:31:54,420
clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they

580
00:31:54,420 --> 00:31:55,740
have a mentor.

581
00:31:55,740 --> 00:32:01,860
If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.

582
00:32:01,860 --> 00:32:03,580
Someone else needs to hear it.

583
00:32:03,580 --> 00:32:07,660
So take a minute right now and share it.

584
00:32:07,660 --> 00:32:13,100
As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation

585
00:32:13,100 --> 00:32:19,060
of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.