Embracing coaching for research success with Dr. Martha Kenney

1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,860 Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills 2 00:00:05,860 --> 00:00:11,260 to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor. 3 00:00:11,260 --> 00:00:17,340 As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients. 4 00:00:17,340 --> 00:00:22,380 When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find 5 00:00:22,380 --> 00:00:27,780 that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research 6 00:00:27,780 --> 00:00:29,200 program. 7 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:35,480 Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit. 8 00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:40,580 However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs. 9 00:00:40,580 --> 00:00:46,200 For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians 10 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,800 the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor. 11 00:00:51,800 --> 00:01:01,060 Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene. 12 00:01:01,060 --> 00:01:02,940 Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast. 13 00:01:02,940 --> 00:01:06,820 I'm your host, Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is an absolute pleasure to be talking with you today. 14 00:01:06,820 --> 00:01:10,860 I'm especially excited about my guest today, Dr. Martha Kenney. 15 00:01:10,860 --> 00:01:13,160 Martha, welcome to the show. 16 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:14,160 Thank you. 17 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,900 So Martha, would you please introduce yourself to our audience? 18 00:01:17,900 --> 00:01:18,900 Sure. 19 00:01:18,900 --> 00:01:20,700 Where do I start? 20 00:01:20,700 --> 00:01:21,700 Let's see. 21 00:01:21,700 --> 00:01:22,700 I'm a clinician scientist. 22 00:01:22,700 --> 00:01:25,900 Clinically, I'm a pediatric anesthesiologist. 23 00:01:25,900 --> 00:01:32,600 I trained in both pediatrics and anesthesia at Hopkins, and then did a pediatric anesthesia 24 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:38,540 fellowship and then moved on from there into the clinical workforce and had kind of a torturous 25 00:01:38,540 --> 00:01:41,840 journey to where I am right now. 26 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:47,860 But in addition to my clinical work, I'm a full-time, like pretty much 70% research right 27 00:01:47,860 --> 00:01:53,180 now, and my research is within sickle cell pain understanding predictors of adverse pain 28 00:01:53,180 --> 00:01:57,500 outcomes in adolescents and young adults with sickle cell disease. 29 00:01:57,500 --> 00:02:04,740 And I also look at disparities and representation of minoritized communities within pain research, 30 00:02:04,740 --> 00:02:07,180 clinical research in general as well. 31 00:02:07,180 --> 00:02:10,580 And in addition to that, I'm a professional coach. 32 00:02:10,580 --> 00:02:15,060 I love to work with women, especially women who are early in their careers, and help them 33 00:02:15,060 --> 00:02:20,340 with career development and time management and to add everything. 34 00:02:20,340 --> 00:02:24,260 You know, the icing on the cake is that I'm a mom of two young kids and a wife, and that's 35 00:02:24,260 --> 00:02:25,260 my pride and joy. 36 00:02:25,260 --> 00:02:26,260 Okay. 37 00:02:26,260 --> 00:02:30,660 So at the beginning, you're doing it all. 38 00:02:30,660 --> 00:02:32,700 I am especially intrigued. 39 00:02:32,700 --> 00:02:37,780 First of all, you are doing, you're a hematologist, even though you're a pediatric anesthesiologist 40 00:02:37,780 --> 00:02:41,980 and your work is in sickle cell, an adult sickle cell for that matter. 41 00:02:41,980 --> 00:02:45,420 I just want to say, how did your research come to be? 42 00:02:45,420 --> 00:02:46,980 What was the journey? 43 00:02:46,980 --> 00:02:51,580 Because when you describe what you do, I'm thinking, I feel like the projects you have 44 00:02:51,580 --> 00:02:54,700 were not handed down to you by a mentor. 45 00:02:54,700 --> 00:02:57,820 I'm wondering, how did you get to be doing what you're doing? 46 00:02:57,820 --> 00:02:59,700 I mean, it's fascinating. 47 00:02:59,700 --> 00:03:04,140 Actually, when I went into medical school, I thought I was going to become a pediatric 48 00:03:04,140 --> 00:03:06,340 hematologist. 49 00:03:06,340 --> 00:03:13,420 And I think, I don't even know at what point I knew what a hematologist was, but growing 50 00:03:13,420 --> 00:03:18,260 up, I knew what sickle cell disease was because of personal experiences that I had. 51 00:03:18,260 --> 00:03:21,300 And also watching a childhood friend who suffered from sickle cell disease. 52 00:03:21,300 --> 00:03:25,340 I'm originally from Ghana, so I saw it in various forms. 53 00:03:25,340 --> 00:03:32,740 And as I got older and can make the connection between these episodes of pain, really excruciating 54 00:03:32,740 --> 00:03:35,020 pain that I witnessed. 55 00:03:35,020 --> 00:03:39,580 And sickle cell disease, I was like, oh, I want to do something to help people like my 56 00:03:39,580 --> 00:03:40,580 friend. 57 00:03:40,580 --> 00:03:41,580 I want to make a difference. 58 00:03:41,580 --> 00:03:42,900 I want to make an impact. 59 00:03:42,900 --> 00:03:46,820 And so the conclusion I came up with was that, well, I have to become a doctor that can take 60 00:03:46,820 --> 00:03:48,960 care of people with sickle cell disease. 61 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:53,660 So throughout medical school, I thought I was going to become a P's hematologist. 62 00:03:53,660 --> 00:03:59,460 I even took a year off from medical school after 30 years to do research of the NIH and 63 00:03:59,460 --> 00:04:01,660 hematology research. 64 00:04:01,660 --> 00:04:07,780 But towards the end, before I went from my research year, I had done an elective in anesthesia 65 00:04:07,780 --> 00:04:10,300 just out of curiosity. 66 00:04:10,300 --> 00:04:12,540 And I was like, okay, I don't know what anesthesiologists do. 67 00:04:12,540 --> 00:04:13,540 Let me find out. 68 00:04:13,540 --> 00:04:16,540 So I did the elective and I really enjoyed it. 69 00:04:16,540 --> 00:04:21,740 It kind of like, I guess, connected with the side of my brain that really loves pharmacology 70 00:04:21,740 --> 00:04:23,700 and physiology and all of that stuff. 71 00:04:23,700 --> 00:04:27,580 It's some of the excitement that comes along with being in the operating room. 72 00:04:27,580 --> 00:04:32,940 And then during my year of research, I realized that while the research year was very productive 73 00:04:32,940 --> 00:04:39,020 and I enjoyed the actual research, clinically, a monk was not the path for me. 74 00:04:39,020 --> 00:04:47,540 But I was very blessed to have a mentor who was invested in me, I think, as a person. 75 00:04:47,540 --> 00:04:50,720 And my mentor is actually currently also had that. 76 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,860 He was at Hopkins at that time and he's at Duke now. 77 00:04:53,860 --> 00:04:59,780 But my mentor during medical school and residency, he was like, when I said, well, I don't think 78 00:04:59,780 --> 00:05:02,780 I want to do hematology anymore, I felt really bad. 79 00:05:02,780 --> 00:05:07,060 I felt like I was letting down my community for many, many, many years. 80 00:05:07,060 --> 00:05:10,700 I thought I was going to go into this hematology. 81 00:05:10,700 --> 00:05:15,260 But then he really pointed out to me that there was a lot of gaps in care when it comes 82 00:05:15,260 --> 00:05:16,900 to sickle cell pain. 83 00:05:16,900 --> 00:05:21,720 And there was an opportunity for me to develop a niche within that space, whether clinically 84 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:23,340 or from a research perspective. 85 00:05:23,340 --> 00:05:29,540 So this pivot would actually end up having a huge benefit for me in the long run. 86 00:05:29,540 --> 00:05:35,400 And so I went down, I decided to do both training in pediatrics and anesthesia. 87 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:40,220 So I did two residencies and then did my fellowship. 88 00:05:40,220 --> 00:05:44,860 And then from there, I had to kind of figure out, well, I'm done with fellowship now. 89 00:05:44,860 --> 00:05:47,140 I've done all the clinical training. 90 00:05:47,140 --> 00:05:50,540 How do I then carve this career that I've always dreamed about? 91 00:05:50,540 --> 00:05:54,620 How do I get back into the sickle cell space and how do I begin to dive into the questions 92 00:05:54,620 --> 00:05:57,340 that are important from a pain perspective? 93 00:05:57,340 --> 00:06:02,140 Wow, that is so, it's a great story. 94 00:06:02,140 --> 00:06:07,140 It's such an amazing story because you thought you were leading the path, but you didn't. 95 00:06:07,140 --> 00:06:08,860 You actually went and created a new path. 96 00:06:08,860 --> 00:06:10,180 Oh my gosh, it's so awesome. 97 00:06:10,180 --> 00:06:18,060 But what I'm really sure I mean, what I, what one thing I would say is that the, the methods 98 00:06:18,060 --> 00:06:23,180 were different, but all along my values were the same. 99 00:06:23,180 --> 00:06:26,900 And my goals, like the values and the intent behind my goals were the same. 100 00:06:26,900 --> 00:06:31,940 I've always wanted to be someone who could serve the community that I came from, help 101 00:06:31,940 --> 00:06:35,240 people who are from, come from a marginalized background. 102 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:36,540 And that never changed. 103 00:06:36,540 --> 00:06:41,380 So even though I didn't become a hematologist, I'm still doing research in that space because 104 00:06:41,380 --> 00:06:43,120 that is my overarching goal. 105 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:45,040 That is my overarching why. 106 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:48,640 And so while the path might look a little bit different, the reason and the purpose 107 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,820 behind the path remained the same. 108 00:06:51,820 --> 00:06:53,180 And that's really amazing. 109 00:06:53,180 --> 00:06:56,180 What strikes me too is the support you had from your mentor. 110 00:06:56,180 --> 00:06:58,820 And I want to just double down on that, right? 111 00:06:58,820 --> 00:07:00,620 Because you said, Hey, I'm leaving the path. 112 00:07:00,620 --> 00:07:02,300 Mentor, you're in hematology. 113 00:07:02,300 --> 00:07:03,800 I'm leading the path. 114 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:06,780 And your mentor didn't say, Oh, wow, you wasted my time. 115 00:07:06,780 --> 00:07:11,900 You, your mentor helped you see that there was still a path forward while honoring what 116 00:07:11,900 --> 00:07:12,900 you cared about. 117 00:07:12,900 --> 00:07:14,900 Can you speak to that? 118 00:07:14,900 --> 00:07:22,380 I mean, I think being a good mentor is being somebody who's invested in the person, in 119 00:07:22,380 --> 00:07:28,180 your mentee, beyond what they can give to you in that moment of the relationship. 120 00:07:28,180 --> 00:07:32,260 You know, being a good mentor goes beyond this kind of, it's not a transactional relationship. 121 00:07:32,260 --> 00:07:37,020 It shouldn't be that way, but it should be more, I see potential in this person and I 122 00:07:37,020 --> 00:07:39,560 want to help to develop that person. 123 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:43,580 And I think that for all of us, when we're trying to identify a good mentor, that's something 124 00:07:43,580 --> 00:07:45,400 that we need to look for. 125 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:51,060 What is the relationship that that person has with their former mentees beyond like 126 00:07:51,060 --> 00:07:56,380 if they are, you know, if you're looking for a K award mentor or whatever kind of mentor, 127 00:07:56,380 --> 00:08:00,460 some kind of career development mentor, think about the relation, ask them about relationships 128 00:08:00,460 --> 00:08:03,240 they have with their former mentees. 129 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:05,340 Have their former mentees become collaborators? 130 00:08:05,340 --> 00:08:07,620 How have they sponsored them in their career? 131 00:08:07,620 --> 00:08:12,740 Because that is an indication of somebody that is more, will be more invested in you 132 00:08:12,740 --> 00:08:16,100 as a person and wants to develop you as a person. 133 00:08:16,100 --> 00:08:22,740 So that means that they will give you advice and guide you in a way that benefits your 134 00:08:22,740 --> 00:08:27,060 career ultimately rather than themselves. 135 00:08:27,060 --> 00:08:28,180 Thank you for pointing that out. 136 00:08:28,180 --> 00:08:33,220 Now I just want to pause on this because I think that especially people who are underrepresented 137 00:08:33,220 --> 00:08:37,700 in medicine, they can have a lot of mentorship struggles, but to be honest, it's not limited 138 00:08:37,700 --> 00:08:40,180 to the people who are underrepresented. 139 00:08:40,180 --> 00:08:44,180 I think in general, most people struggle with mentoring. 140 00:08:44,180 --> 00:08:48,340 And I think there are, you know, the studies that say even as little as 20% of faculty 141 00:08:48,340 --> 00:08:50,060 feel like they have adequate mentoring. 142 00:08:50,060 --> 00:08:53,820 And this is especially worse for women and people who are underrepresented. 143 00:08:53,820 --> 00:08:58,700 And you know, many times I think there's this advice that you should, you know, you find 144 00:08:58,700 --> 00:09:02,780 the person who has the Nobel Prize or has a three R01 and that's the person who should 145 00:09:02,780 --> 00:09:03,780 be your mentor. 146 00:09:03,780 --> 00:09:05,780 And you're like, oh my gosh, this person is successful. 147 00:09:05,780 --> 00:09:09,520 But can you speak to finding a mentor who cares about you, who cares enough about you 148 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:14,980 that they actually are going to invest in you and build your career even when potentially 149 00:09:14,980 --> 00:09:16,180 could cost them? 150 00:09:16,180 --> 00:09:20,820 I think the first thing is that one misconception that people have is that they're going to 151 00:09:20,820 --> 00:09:24,380 find that one mentor that checks off all the boxes, right? 152 00:09:24,380 --> 00:09:27,020 There isn't, that doesn't exist. 153 00:09:27,020 --> 00:09:34,460 And so I think we have to think about the areas that we need to develop as a person. 154 00:09:34,460 --> 00:09:39,540 You need a mentor who has expertise in the research path that you're on. 155 00:09:39,540 --> 00:09:42,380 You need a mentor that can act as a sponsor. 156 00:09:42,380 --> 00:09:46,180 Maybe, you know, they're kind of more senior and they're not, you know, getting as many 157 00:09:46,180 --> 00:09:50,420 grants, but they're very well connected and they can connect you with other people. 158 00:09:50,420 --> 00:09:56,100 You need somebody also that can also really provide kind of more of emotional support 159 00:09:56,100 --> 00:09:58,780 and a safe space for you as well. 160 00:09:58,780 --> 00:10:03,880 And so when you think about all of those needs, that means that you really need to focus on 161 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:07,100 building authentic relationships with people. 162 00:10:07,100 --> 00:10:12,380 And it's, it can't just, it goes back to, it shouldn't just be transactional, right? 163 00:10:12,380 --> 00:10:14,320 It has to be bi-directional. 164 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:18,300 And I think one of the things that I go into mentoring relationships with is that even 165 00:10:18,300 --> 00:10:23,420 though I may be the most junior person ever, I have the mindset that I have something to 166 00:10:23,420 --> 00:10:24,420 offer them. 167 00:10:24,420 --> 00:10:26,340 If I don't, why are they mentoring me? 168 00:10:26,340 --> 00:10:27,340 Right? 169 00:10:27,340 --> 00:10:28,340 Why are they invested? 170 00:10:28,340 --> 00:10:34,620 You know, I have maybe a unique perspective or background, or maybe, you know, I buy some 171 00:10:34,620 --> 00:10:40,060 of the work that I'm doing, it also is going to benefit their career ultimately as well. 172 00:10:40,060 --> 00:10:44,140 Or maybe I can provide mentorship to, or guidance to some of their other mentees, but there's 173 00:10:44,140 --> 00:10:49,340 something that I am offering in that relationship in addition to them offering something to 174 00:10:49,340 --> 00:10:51,340 me in that relationship as well. 175 00:10:51,340 --> 00:10:54,380 So that is also the mindset that I approach it with. 176 00:10:54,380 --> 00:11:00,520 And then I also look at people who I'm just genuinely interested in, not just their research, 177 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:02,540 but just them as a person. 178 00:11:02,540 --> 00:11:04,800 You know, how did they get to where they are? 179 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:09,540 Because maybe they are a vision or a picture of similar to where I want to be in 10 or 180 00:11:09,540 --> 00:11:10,940 15 years. 181 00:11:10,940 --> 00:11:15,860 I'm interested in their hobbies, their behaviors, things that, you know, made them successful, 182 00:11:15,860 --> 00:11:18,080 things that didn't work for them. 183 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:22,040 And people who are willing to be open about those things are people who I think will make 184 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:24,000 great mentors as well. 185 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:29,440 So it's really just authentic relationship, relationship building. 186 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:35,060 It can be random emails that you send once in a while, but build relationships. 187 00:11:35,060 --> 00:11:41,540 And especially now, during this time in which we're still relying on remote relationships, 188 00:11:41,540 --> 00:11:46,060 you have to be intentional not to just meet remotely, but also have periods where you 189 00:11:46,060 --> 00:11:48,380 meet with a person in person. 190 00:11:48,380 --> 00:11:52,100 Even if it means getting on a plane or flying to their institution, if they're not at your 191 00:11:52,100 --> 00:11:56,580 institution, you'd also need that personal touch as well. 192 00:11:56,580 --> 00:11:58,460 Your words are music to my ears. 193 00:11:58,460 --> 00:12:01,620 Well, I would say, you know, you can do the personal touches via Zoom. 194 00:12:01,620 --> 00:12:02,620 You don't have to fly all the way. 195 00:12:02,620 --> 00:12:08,100 You don't, but I think there is, you know, the conference you planned to do that as well. 196 00:12:08,100 --> 00:12:10,780 Yeah, because they get expensive. 197 00:12:10,780 --> 00:12:11,780 That is true. 198 00:12:11,780 --> 00:12:16,140 But your words are music to my ears, though, really, because I it's one of the it's one 199 00:12:16,140 --> 00:12:21,540 of the gospels that I preach is the gospel of there's not one mentor for you. 200 00:12:21,540 --> 00:12:23,820 Stop looking for that person. 201 00:12:23,820 --> 00:12:26,620 And I think I don't know where this it's a nerve-ridden nudging. 202 00:12:26,620 --> 00:12:29,900 I don't know where it comes from this sense that there's gonna be just one person is gonna 203 00:12:29,900 --> 00:12:33,300 take you from, you know, from rags to riches. 204 00:12:33,300 --> 00:12:35,300 And there is no such person. 205 00:12:35,300 --> 00:12:36,460 And I'm not sure where it comes from. 206 00:12:36,460 --> 00:12:39,700 And people are spending a lot of time looking for that one person. 207 00:12:39,700 --> 00:12:44,900 Well, I love the way you put it, building authentic relationship, not looking for it 208 00:12:44,900 --> 00:12:46,260 as a transactional thing. 209 00:12:46,260 --> 00:12:47,580 I think that's a big deal. 210 00:12:47,580 --> 00:12:51,900 Maybe we can talk about this transaction, because it's a habit in medicine, right? 211 00:12:51,900 --> 00:12:55,180 If you're trying to get into med school, it's like, well, I need to do research, let me 212 00:12:55,180 --> 00:12:57,340 go find some of your research with and then you're trying to get into residency. 213 00:12:57,340 --> 00:13:00,980 It's like, well, I need to publish a few papers and go find someone to do this with. 214 00:13:00,980 --> 00:13:03,740 And we live life as a series of transactions. 215 00:13:03,740 --> 00:13:08,580 And, you know, it works, honestly, but then it gets to a point, especially when it comes 216 00:13:08,580 --> 00:13:12,940 to building your career, where transactions are no longer the way forward. 217 00:13:12,940 --> 00:13:18,980 Can you speak to how do you make that shift from just trying to get a paper, trying to 218 00:13:18,980 --> 00:13:24,620 get the grant to really like doing work you love and working with people who care about 219 00:13:24,620 --> 00:13:26,620 you and that you care about as well? 220 00:13:26,620 --> 00:13:29,780 I mean, it's teamwork, right? 221 00:13:29,780 --> 00:13:32,740 I mean, that's really what it is. 222 00:13:32,740 --> 00:13:38,580 And I don't know, how do you teach someone to be genuinely interested in other people? 223 00:13:38,580 --> 00:13:43,620 I think that's, I feel like that's a little bit difficult. 224 00:13:43,620 --> 00:13:51,540 And I think sometimes the best way to look at it is to just take away that transaction 225 00:13:51,540 --> 00:13:54,040 that you're looking for, right? 226 00:13:54,040 --> 00:14:00,580 And just say that, think about, I really want to talk to Dr. So-so and so because I'm just 227 00:14:00,580 --> 00:14:04,340 interested in hearing about X, I'm interested in hearing about their attorney and really 228 00:14:04,340 --> 00:14:07,240 just be curious. 229 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:11,900 You have to be curious about people, curious about how they got to where they are, why 230 00:14:11,900 --> 00:14:13,420 they're studying the topics that they are. 231 00:14:13,420 --> 00:14:19,380 I think that curiosity can allow you to be open and really build those relationships. 232 00:14:19,380 --> 00:14:24,340 And it's also important to realize that whether it's writing the papers or getting the grants, 233 00:14:24,340 --> 00:14:27,260 I mean, right now, everything happens through collaboration. 234 00:14:27,260 --> 00:14:30,740 You are not going to have all of the skills that you need to be successful. 235 00:14:30,740 --> 00:14:32,620 It's not, it's not true. 236 00:14:32,620 --> 00:14:38,740 And so you are going to be relying on people to fill in certain gaps that you don't have. 237 00:14:38,740 --> 00:14:41,980 And that's the, you know, I'm not at the R01 stage, I'm on a K award. 238 00:14:41,980 --> 00:14:45,100 But when you get to the R01 stage, that's what it's all about, right? 239 00:14:45,100 --> 00:14:49,340 You know, you have to find a simple team that can fill in the gaps that you as the principal 240 00:14:49,340 --> 00:14:51,260 investigator do not have. 241 00:14:51,260 --> 00:14:56,580 And so that means that those collaborative relationships that work well, you need to 242 00:14:56,580 --> 00:14:58,940 start establishing them early. 243 00:14:58,940 --> 00:15:03,300 And I think you establish them early by just approaching things with curiosity and really 244 00:15:03,300 --> 00:15:09,500 being curious about the person's life, their choices, their successes, things that didn't 245 00:15:09,500 --> 00:15:12,480 work, etc. and just being authentic. 246 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:14,160 And sometimes that doesn't work. 247 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:16,300 So you walk away from that relationship. 248 00:15:16,300 --> 00:15:21,580 I've had those kinds of mentor-mentee relationships that drain you. 249 00:15:21,580 --> 00:15:25,940 And you're just like, okay, this is, you know, this person might be a big shot, but it's 250 00:15:25,940 --> 00:15:26,940 not working for me. 251 00:15:26,940 --> 00:15:31,140 I can't be my authentic self, you know, they don't appreciate me for my authentic self. 252 00:15:31,140 --> 00:15:33,880 They don't see the value of the work that I have. 253 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:39,160 And so especially as a URM person, faculty member, so sometimes you have to walk away 254 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:40,160 from those relationships. 255 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:41,160 I remember one company. 256 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:47,700 You know, when thinking about being underrepresented in this field in general, I think the challenge 257 00:15:47,700 --> 00:15:52,840 when it comes to mentorship for us, I mean, from my perspective, at least, is that a lot 258 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:57,060 of times the mentors don't come to us, right? 259 00:15:57,060 --> 00:16:01,800 Because oftentimes people are drawn to people whom they have shared experiences with. 260 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:06,580 And when you're talking about the fact that like less than 5% of physician scientists 261 00:16:06,580 --> 00:16:10,420 are, you know, underrepresented minorities, I think if I have that statistic right, I 262 00:16:10,420 --> 00:16:15,080 know it's super, super low, then who are they going to have shared experiences with? 263 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:16,420 Usually not us. 264 00:16:16,420 --> 00:16:17,940 And so they're not going to come to us. 265 00:16:17,940 --> 00:16:23,360 So you do have to take the initiative to go seek it. 266 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:29,960 And in the beginning of my career, when I was 100% clinical, had no structured mentorship 267 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:35,300 after I finished when I joined faculty at my first position, the way that I took the 268 00:16:35,300 --> 00:16:40,300 initiative is that I spent a lot of time with NIH reporters sending cold emails. 269 00:16:40,300 --> 00:16:44,220 And the people that responded to my emails, it tells a lot about who they are, right? 270 00:16:44,220 --> 00:16:48,500 They get an email from somebody who hasn't published in a long time, who doesn't have 271 00:16:48,500 --> 00:16:51,120 anything important next to their name. 272 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:55,100 You can't find their name anywhere at NIH reporter, and they have assistant professor 273 00:16:55,100 --> 00:16:56,980 next to their title as well. 274 00:16:56,980 --> 00:17:00,260 And all I had to show at that moment was my interest and my passion. 275 00:17:00,260 --> 00:17:05,600 But yet they responded to that email, and they spent time talking to me, walking me 276 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:07,520 through certain things. 277 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:09,620 That tells you a lot about that person. 278 00:17:09,620 --> 00:17:15,260 And so we do have to go out and take that initiative because we often don't have access 279 00:17:15,260 --> 00:17:18,580 to the mentorship that we need. 280 00:17:18,580 --> 00:17:19,820 I love it. 281 00:17:19,820 --> 00:17:21,300 This is so good. 282 00:17:21,300 --> 00:17:22,880 This is so good. 283 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:27,820 And one thing that I just want to echo is that if you find yourself in a mentoring relationship 284 00:17:27,820 --> 00:17:32,580 where you're trying to impress your mentor, where you're trying to make them see that 285 00:17:32,580 --> 00:17:36,340 you're worthy, don't even invest that energy. 286 00:17:36,340 --> 00:17:37,800 It's not the relationship for you. 287 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:39,260 It's an abundant world. 288 00:17:39,260 --> 00:17:40,260 You will find other mentors. 289 00:17:40,260 --> 00:17:43,700 Yeah, I love that it is an abundant world. 290 00:17:43,700 --> 00:17:44,700 All right. 291 00:17:44,700 --> 00:17:49,220 I want us to shift gears a little bit because you coach as well. 292 00:17:49,220 --> 00:17:52,260 And I'm excited always to meet a fellow coach. 293 00:17:52,260 --> 00:17:55,700 And I want to know what gaps did you see that made you say, oh, now I'm going to step into 294 00:17:55,700 --> 00:17:57,980 this coaching thing because you're also a mentor. 295 00:17:57,980 --> 00:18:01,860 And so you decided somehow that mentoring wasn't enough and that you were going to go 296 00:18:01,860 --> 00:18:03,260 a step further and coach. 297 00:18:03,260 --> 00:18:04,740 Tell me about that. 298 00:18:04,740 --> 00:18:05,740 Yeah. 299 00:18:05,740 --> 00:18:10,820 I mean, I started coaching because I was coached. 300 00:18:10,820 --> 00:18:16,860 And when I started my faculty position, I knew what I wanted. 301 00:18:16,860 --> 00:18:21,260 I knew that I wanted to really develop a research career. 302 00:18:21,260 --> 00:18:23,500 And I didn't want to just dabble in research. 303 00:18:23,500 --> 00:18:26,740 I wanted to become a full-time researcher. 304 00:18:26,740 --> 00:18:29,200 And I knew that focus was in sickle cell disease. 305 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:34,580 But unfortunately, I was in a situation where the environment was not conducive to my goals 306 00:18:34,580 --> 00:18:37,280 and my potential was ignored. 307 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:39,780 It was not recognized no matter what I did. 308 00:18:39,780 --> 00:18:44,700 And so I found myself stuck and not being able to find a way out. 309 00:18:44,700 --> 00:18:47,140 And I knew nothing about coaching at that time. 310 00:18:47,140 --> 00:18:50,940 I thought coaching was for VIP people, people in C-suite. 311 00:18:50,940 --> 00:18:54,100 I didn't know that coaching could be for people like me. 312 00:18:54,100 --> 00:18:59,500 And so I spoke to a friend of mine who is an executive coach. 313 00:18:59,500 --> 00:19:07,620 And I told her about what was happening to me at work and how just unfulfilled I was 314 00:19:07,620 --> 00:19:09,020 and how dissatisfied I was. 315 00:19:09,020 --> 00:19:11,160 And she was like, you need a coach. 316 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:19,500 And she explained to me that a coach just guides you towards self-awareness. 317 00:19:19,500 --> 00:19:26,020 You as a person, when I coach clients, I believe that my client has all of the resources that 318 00:19:26,020 --> 00:19:27,760 they need to solve their problems. 319 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:31,740 They're just not aware of those resources and they don't know how to tap into it. 320 00:19:31,740 --> 00:19:33,080 And so you often get stuck. 321 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:38,980 And so I, as a coach, I'm helping them find the clarity that they need on their own terms 322 00:19:38,980 --> 00:19:45,260 and then also helping them to really take actionable step in the context of where they 323 00:19:45,260 --> 00:19:49,700 are in life and what works for them so that they can really get that transformation of 324 00:19:49,700 --> 00:19:51,300 results that they're looking for. 325 00:19:51,300 --> 00:19:52,860 And that is what coaching did for me. 326 00:19:52,860 --> 00:19:58,260 And a mentor can give you advice, but advice is just advice. 327 00:19:58,260 --> 00:20:03,660 How do I apply that advice in the context of my life in terms of what's worthwhile to 328 00:20:03,660 --> 00:20:06,020 me, what matters to me? 329 00:20:06,020 --> 00:20:07,740 That advice is helpful. 330 00:20:07,740 --> 00:20:11,660 It's the resource, but you're handing me a resource that in this moment I don't know 331 00:20:11,660 --> 00:20:15,180 how to use because I feel powerless. 332 00:20:15,180 --> 00:20:16,780 I feel stuck. 333 00:20:16,780 --> 00:20:18,020 I don't have clarity. 334 00:20:18,020 --> 00:20:19,900 I don't even know what steps to take. 335 00:20:19,900 --> 00:20:26,500 And my coach will help me take that resource and become unstuck and help me overcome mindsets 336 00:20:26,500 --> 00:20:29,000 that are also keeping me back as well. 337 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:33,980 And so I have such a tremendous experience having a coach. 338 00:20:33,980 --> 00:20:35,900 It really transformed my mindset. 339 00:20:35,900 --> 00:20:40,660 I look at myself from four or five years ago where I am now. 340 00:20:40,660 --> 00:20:44,440 I wouldn't be on this podcast. 341 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:45,980 My mindset has changed. 342 00:20:45,980 --> 00:20:48,960 Like Martha is a completely different person. 343 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:54,140 Because of that impact, I'm like, I want to also create that impact for other people as 344 00:20:54,140 --> 00:20:55,140 well. 345 00:20:55,140 --> 00:21:00,180 I also want people to really have these aha moments to overcome these mindsets that become 346 00:21:00,180 --> 00:21:02,200 roadblocks to their success. 347 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,340 And so that is why I also became trained as a coach. 348 00:21:05,340 --> 00:21:08,420 Alice, it's really, it's funny. 349 00:21:08,420 --> 00:21:10,580 Your story resonates with me in so many ways. 350 00:21:10,580 --> 00:21:14,380 I was coached and coaching transformed my academic career. 351 00:21:14,380 --> 00:21:15,820 I mean, I had mentors. 352 00:21:15,820 --> 00:21:18,740 I also had mentors where I dropped along the way. 353 00:21:18,740 --> 00:21:22,500 But coaching really helped me step in the owner's seat of my own career. 354 00:21:22,500 --> 00:21:23,500 And I think that's a challenge. 355 00:21:23,500 --> 00:21:27,820 And the thing that, you know, we didn't, it's kind of like the hidden curriculum. 356 00:21:27,820 --> 00:21:30,900 When you think about the fact that one mentor is not going to be it for you, you're going 357 00:21:30,900 --> 00:21:35,780 to need many mentors, but who's helping you navigate the many mentors that you have? 358 00:21:35,780 --> 00:21:36,780 It's really you. 359 00:21:36,780 --> 00:21:38,660 You're in the driver's seat of your career. 360 00:21:38,660 --> 00:21:43,580 And I think the challenge with our, our academic training, right, is that it teaches us to 361 00:21:43,580 --> 00:21:46,700 be dependent on the person who knows more. 362 00:21:46,700 --> 00:21:52,060 And so we come through this dependency model of med students as residents, as fellows. 363 00:21:52,060 --> 00:21:55,860 Ten years later, all of a sudden we're supposed to turn around and be in charge of our careers 364 00:21:55,860 --> 00:22:01,580 and we don't even have the slightest clue, but everything we need exists inside of us. 365 00:22:01,580 --> 00:22:03,180 We just can't see it. 366 00:22:03,180 --> 00:22:07,620 And so what an opportunity to talk with someone or to have an experience with a coach who 367 00:22:07,620 --> 00:22:12,420 can help you see your leadership for what it is and for you to step into the driver's 368 00:22:12,420 --> 00:22:16,640 seat, become the CEO of your career, navigating these mentors. 369 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:21,820 Understanding these experiences and really building a career that's truly your own. 370 00:22:21,820 --> 00:22:28,180 And so yeah, coaching is so powerful and I don't know that people understand, or I mean, 371 00:22:28,180 --> 00:22:29,180 you can't, right? 372 00:22:29,180 --> 00:22:32,420 Before you get into it, you have no idea how it's going to transform your life. 373 00:22:32,420 --> 00:22:35,980 So what would you say for the faculty member who's like, oh, I have great mentoring. 374 00:22:35,980 --> 00:22:37,260 I really need a coach. 375 00:22:37,260 --> 00:22:40,100 I don't think I need this thing you're talking about. 376 00:22:40,100 --> 00:22:45,580 What, how should they really be thinking about approaching coaching? 377 00:22:45,580 --> 00:22:51,980 So I, you know, I, when I give talks and coaching, I have this recurrent slide and it's, it's 378 00:22:51,980 --> 00:22:53,580 a picture of Serena Williams. 379 00:22:53,580 --> 00:22:58,940 And it says, if Serena needed a coach, I certainly need one. 380 00:22:58,940 --> 00:23:03,780 And the point that I've make is that we're talking about the best tennis player in the 381 00:23:03,780 --> 00:23:04,780 world. 382 00:23:04,780 --> 00:23:11,220 I don't know if someone's going to contradict me, but you know, she had incredible talent, 383 00:23:11,220 --> 00:23:14,220 but talent is not enough, right? 384 00:23:14,220 --> 00:23:20,340 You know, the, the point of a coach is to really help you and guide you in how you can 385 00:23:20,340 --> 00:23:25,300 use that talent to get the result that you want. 386 00:23:25,300 --> 00:23:32,180 And so her coach on the tennis court was helping her not dim down Serena, but take Serena's 387 00:23:32,180 --> 00:23:36,220 power in her serve and all her energy, right? 388 00:23:36,220 --> 00:23:41,540 And take that to get the result that she wants, which is wins, winning, winning games. 389 00:23:41,540 --> 00:23:45,760 And so I think as a faculty member, you can have a lot of talent. 390 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:47,340 There's a lot of talented people. 391 00:23:47,340 --> 00:23:51,620 There are a lot of skilled researchers out there, but there are going to be mindsets 392 00:23:51,620 --> 00:23:56,220 that you're a mentor is not even aware of, you know, why is it that you can't submit 393 00:23:56,220 --> 00:23:57,220 that grant? 394 00:23:57,220 --> 00:23:59,400 Why do you keep procrastinating on it? 395 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,700 Why are the papers not getting in? 396 00:24:01,700 --> 00:24:06,420 You know, what's happening with your team dynamics in terms of getting your studies 397 00:24:06,420 --> 00:24:07,420 done? 398 00:24:07,420 --> 00:24:10,580 And there's so many, it could be a mindset that's in the way. 399 00:24:10,580 --> 00:24:15,260 Or why are you just not, you don't feel motivated by that particular question that you're pursuing? 400 00:24:15,260 --> 00:24:16,900 Maybe it's not a worthwhile question for you. 401 00:24:16,900 --> 00:24:18,660 You need clarity on it. 402 00:24:18,660 --> 00:24:24,620 And so a coach is really there to help tap into your inner potential. 403 00:24:24,620 --> 00:24:29,340 And there are a lot of people that go through all of the motions and they have incredible 404 00:24:29,340 --> 00:24:32,380 potential, but nobody taps into it. 405 00:24:32,380 --> 00:24:34,300 So they're not successful. 406 00:24:34,300 --> 00:24:37,260 And it's not because they weren't talented or smart enough. 407 00:24:37,260 --> 00:24:42,340 It's because they didn't have like the resource of a great coach that can really tap into 408 00:24:42,340 --> 00:24:43,340 that. 409 00:24:43,340 --> 00:24:46,140 So if Serena needed a coach, we certainly need one. 410 00:24:46,140 --> 00:24:47,140 Absolutely. 411 00:24:47,140 --> 00:24:50,140 It's unleashing your inner power, your inner fire. 412 00:24:50,140 --> 00:24:54,780 Like, I mean, you may be playing a great game, but you can take your game to like another 413 00:24:54,780 --> 00:24:57,980 level and having the right coach will help you do that. 414 00:24:57,980 --> 00:25:01,820 I mean, it's like, it's who you are beyond even what you're succeeding in. 415 00:25:01,820 --> 00:25:03,660 Okay, so you're getting all the papers in. 416 00:25:03,660 --> 00:25:06,180 So you're submitting the grants and you're getting them. 417 00:25:06,180 --> 00:25:08,140 So what more can you do? 418 00:25:08,140 --> 00:25:11,900 And I think faculty numbers need to pay attention to the desire for more. 419 00:25:11,900 --> 00:25:15,780 It's like, if you're feeling like, I want more, I want more out of my career. 420 00:25:15,780 --> 00:25:17,140 I want more out of my life. 421 00:25:17,140 --> 00:25:18,340 I want more. 422 00:25:18,340 --> 00:25:19,580 I think it's the call. 423 00:25:19,580 --> 00:25:24,660 It's the cry of, hey, I need someone to help me figure out what this more is. 424 00:25:24,660 --> 00:25:30,140 And to be honest, for many times, and I want to say this again, I think this really happens 425 00:25:30,140 --> 00:25:33,140 a lot for women and people who are underrepresented. 426 00:25:33,140 --> 00:25:36,100 There's a sense that, well, I'm going down the motions and I'm making it, but this is 427 00:25:36,100 --> 00:25:37,100 not it. 428 00:25:37,100 --> 00:25:38,100 It's not fulfilling me. 429 00:25:38,100 --> 00:25:44,620 And I really think that if you are not fulfilled, then you've got to take the next step to get 430 00:25:44,620 --> 00:25:51,580 to where you want to be, to really start to have the career that nourishes you, that fulfills 431 00:25:51,580 --> 00:25:56,940 you and then helps you feel like, wow, this is absolutely what I came to do, who I came 432 00:25:56,940 --> 00:25:57,940 to be. 433 00:25:57,940 --> 00:25:58,940 Exactly. 434 00:25:58,940 --> 00:26:01,940 This is such a great conversation. 435 00:26:01,940 --> 00:26:05,980 I wanted to go on for it. 436 00:26:05,980 --> 00:26:07,940 We do need to come to a close. 437 00:26:07,940 --> 00:26:09,340 And I just want to add a few. 438 00:26:09,340 --> 00:26:13,140 Well, actually, I want to ask you what closing thoughts do you have for us? 439 00:26:13,140 --> 00:26:18,540 And to talk to my audience about, hey, if they want to coach you, how do they find you? 440 00:26:18,540 --> 00:26:19,540 Oh, great. 441 00:26:19,540 --> 00:26:24,740 I mean, I think you kind of, you've nailed what I wanted to say in closing, which is 442 00:26:24,740 --> 00:26:32,300 the fact that it's your career should really provide you with fire and fuel and really 443 00:26:32,300 --> 00:26:34,860 fulfill you rather than train you. 444 00:26:34,860 --> 00:26:40,840 And I have seen a lot of people who have all the external signs of success, but their careers 445 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:41,840 drain in them. 446 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:43,380 They feel like something's missing. 447 00:26:43,380 --> 00:26:45,320 They feel very unfulfilled. 448 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:50,300 And some of it is because of a lack of clarity on what they want or because a lack or a lack 449 00:26:50,300 --> 00:26:55,860 of boundaries or there's just something that is missing, something that would really add 450 00:26:55,860 --> 00:26:59,160 that sense of meaning to what they're doing. 451 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:04,940 And so I think that that is how coaching can be really remarkable and really help. 452 00:27:04,940 --> 00:27:08,080 I think of coaching as a form of human intervention. 453 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,580 We prescribe medications all the time, right? 454 00:27:11,580 --> 00:27:15,380 For different developments is another, it's another intervention. 455 00:27:15,380 --> 00:27:20,940 It's like, you know, some people just need to be prescribed a coach to address the issues 456 00:27:20,940 --> 00:27:22,540 of the challenges that they may have. 457 00:27:22,540 --> 00:27:25,940 Or even if they're not having any challenges to bring out the best in them, to become the 458 00:27:25,940 --> 00:27:31,300 best version of themselves, not just the best version to offer to your career, but the best 459 00:27:31,300 --> 00:27:34,180 version you can offer to your family as well. 460 00:27:34,180 --> 00:27:39,100 Because when you are successful in your career, when it is like providing you with energy 461 00:27:39,100 --> 00:27:45,500 and helping you to be fulfilled, you are able to become a better spouse, a better mother 462 00:27:45,500 --> 00:27:52,700 or a better husband because you are able to parent from a place of joy and fulfillment 463 00:27:52,700 --> 00:27:57,620 rather than resentment and bitterness because your career is draining you and draining all 464 00:27:57,620 --> 00:27:59,980 aspects of your personal life. 465 00:27:59,980 --> 00:28:05,180 And so I really do think that coaching can make a tremendous difference. 466 00:28:05,180 --> 00:28:09,660 It's made a difference in me going from being somebody who is fully clinical and really 467 00:28:09,660 --> 00:28:14,060 trying going to work every day, not because the work I was doing wasn't important, but 468 00:28:14,060 --> 00:28:17,560 because it just wasn't as meaningful to me in the same way. 469 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,140 And I wanted to have a bigger impact. 470 00:28:20,140 --> 00:28:25,740 I wanted to, you know, make an impact on people who come from my community. 471 00:28:25,740 --> 00:28:31,600 And so now I am walking that talk and I'm becoming the Martha that I was meant to be 472 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:33,940 in my work that I'm doing as a researcher. 473 00:28:33,940 --> 00:28:35,980 So that's what I will end with. 474 00:28:35,980 --> 00:28:40,220 And if somebody was wants to touch base with me, you can connect with me on LinkedIn. 475 00:28:40,220 --> 00:28:42,420 That is the best place to send me a message. 476 00:28:42,420 --> 00:28:46,100 I'm very active on LinkedIn every day. 477 00:28:46,100 --> 00:28:47,660 It's my fun place to be. 478 00:28:47,660 --> 00:28:49,740 It's a place where I release a lot of creativity. 479 00:28:49,740 --> 00:28:53,660 So just send me a connection request, DM me. 480 00:28:53,660 --> 00:28:57,260 I am available and I am here to support anybody. 481 00:28:57,260 --> 00:29:00,560 Thank you so much, Dr. Kinney. 482 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:01,740 That's a great last word. 483 00:29:01,740 --> 00:29:05,660 I feel like from what you were saying, a question popped in my mind and I feel like it would 484 00:29:05,660 --> 00:29:08,700 be a service to our community to share that. 485 00:29:08,700 --> 00:29:11,300 You know, people are like, well, coaching sounds great and everything, but how do I 486 00:29:11,300 --> 00:29:12,300 pay for it? 487 00:29:12,300 --> 00:29:13,300 It's expensive. 488 00:29:13,300 --> 00:29:14,300 Right. 489 00:29:14,300 --> 00:29:19,100 Can you speak to how people can make the investment? 490 00:29:19,100 --> 00:29:23,740 What shifts need to happen and where do people go find the money? 491 00:29:23,740 --> 00:29:24,740 Great questions. 492 00:29:24,740 --> 00:29:25,740 There's different ways. 493 00:29:25,740 --> 00:29:28,580 I think the very first place to start is your workplace. 494 00:29:28,580 --> 00:29:34,820 And so many of us have CME funds or we have some kind of discretionary funds, which in 495 00:29:34,820 --> 00:29:40,260 most departments, they will support you and you can use some of those funds to help for 496 00:29:40,260 --> 00:29:43,540 a coach because your coach is going to help you with career development and professional 497 00:29:43,540 --> 00:29:44,660 development. 498 00:29:44,660 --> 00:29:47,620 So that's, I think, a great place to start as well. 499 00:29:47,620 --> 00:29:51,860 And then the other place is, you know, it's not even a place, but it's a thought. 500 00:29:51,860 --> 00:29:55,420 You know, you are investing in yourself. 501 00:29:55,420 --> 00:29:58,300 You're investing in developing yourself. 502 00:29:58,300 --> 00:30:05,020 I mean, don't we shouldn't take for granted when you see an incredible leader and you're 503 00:30:05,020 --> 00:30:09,260 watching that person and you're thinking, oh gosh, they're so amazing. 504 00:30:09,260 --> 00:30:11,060 They're a great mentor. 505 00:30:11,060 --> 00:30:14,780 They're just killing it in all these different areas. 506 00:30:14,780 --> 00:30:21,820 You will not believe the amount of investment that that person has put into developing themselves. 507 00:30:21,820 --> 00:30:24,760 We people don't become like that overnight. 508 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:29,300 And so you also have to be willing to invest in yourself and some of that investment is 509 00:30:29,300 --> 00:30:34,760 time, is money, is energy, you know, is other resources as well. 510 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:39,460 And so you have to be the person who is going to champion yourself by investing in yourself. 511 00:30:39,460 --> 00:30:43,420 If you're asking your mentors to invest in you, you also have to be willing and invest 512 00:30:43,420 --> 00:30:44,420 in yourself. 513 00:30:44,420 --> 00:30:48,540 You develop yourself first because you know yourself better than anybody else and you 514 00:30:48,540 --> 00:30:50,080 know who you want to become. 515 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:54,660 And so that is what I will say to that. 516 00:30:54,660 --> 00:30:56,700 That is a great place to end. 517 00:30:56,700 --> 00:30:58,940 I feel like Dr. Kenny, you took me to church. 518 00:30:58,940 --> 00:31:05,740 And now I'm going to go sit and meditate on the word you gave me. 519 00:31:05,740 --> 00:31:07,540 Well, it's a pleasure. 520 00:31:07,540 --> 00:31:10,420 It was a pleasure speaking with you for sure. 521 00:31:10,420 --> 00:31:13,340 Absolute pleasure to have you on the show. 522 00:31:13,340 --> 00:31:17,780 Everyone you've heard Dr. Kenny, I mean, she's just shared a number of gems. 523 00:31:17,780 --> 00:31:19,460 Somebody else needs to hear this podcast episode. 524 00:31:19,460 --> 00:31:22,200 If you're listening to it and you're like, wow, this was good. 525 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:23,620 You know somebody else who needs to hear it. 526 00:31:23,620 --> 00:31:28,260 I'm inviting you right now, send it to just one person, make a difference in the life 527 00:31:28,260 --> 00:31:32,740 of another clinician who's working to make this transition to become a clinician scientist. 528 00:31:32,740 --> 00:31:36,300 Dr. Kenny, thank you for coming on the show. 529 00:31:36,300 --> 00:31:37,300 Thank you for having me. 530 00:31:37,300 --> 00:31:38,300 All right, everybody. 531 00:31:38,300 --> 00:31:48,820 We'll see you next time on the Clinician Researcher Podcast. 532 00:31:48,820 --> 00:31:54,180 Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast, where academic 533 00:31:54,180 --> 00:31:59,620 clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they 534 00:31:59,620 --> 00:32:00,980 have a mentor. 535 00:32:00,980 --> 00:32:07,100 If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself. 536 00:32:07,100 --> 00:32:08,820 Someone else needs to hear it. 537 00:32:08,820 --> 00:32:12,880 So take a minute right now and share it. 538 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:18,340 As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation 539 00:32:18,340 --> 00:32:24,300 of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.