Finding Joy in Academia with Dr. Leonor Corsino

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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills

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to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.

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When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find

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that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research

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program.

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Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.

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However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.

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For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians

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the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.

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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast.

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I'm your host, Toyosi Onwuemene, and I'm so excited to be on the show today because I

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have with me a wonderful academic physician, scientist, administrator.

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Oh my goodness, she wears so many hats.

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Actually, I should add to that changing the world one student at a time.

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She's doing so much, Dr. Leonor Corsino.

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Leonor, welcome to the show.

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Well, thank you so much for having me.

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I am so excited to be joining you today for this conversation.

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I'm looking forward to talk to you about our journeys.

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Yes, the pleasure is absolutely mine.

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Leonor, would you introduce yourself to our audience, especially with regard to your path

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as a clinician researcher?

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Yes.

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So I'm Leonor Corsino.

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I'm an associate professor with tenure in the Department of Medicine at Duke University.

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I'm also an associate professor in the Department of Population Health Science.

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As you mentioned earlier, I hold other roles in our school.

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I'm the co-director for the CTSI Community Engagement Court, and I also work as an associate

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dean for students' affairs.

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I also have a small role as the associate director for a master's degree in our school,

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which is the master of biomedical sciences.

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And I still do a little bit of research too on this side.

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Wow.

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So Leonor, you do a lot.

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Now you didn't start out doing this much.

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So tell us a little bit about your journey, because I think when you started, you were

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a lot more research intensive.

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So how did you kind of come in this direction to where you're still doing research on top

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of all these other things that you're still doing?

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Yes.

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So I actually started my journey at Duke in 2006.

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So I joined Duke as an endocrinology fellow with the notion that I wanted to pursue a

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career as a physician scientist.

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So I was in a T32 grant for my last two years of fellowship.

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So I did a three-year endocrine fellowship and simultaneously completed my master of

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health science in clinical research.

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So my goal was to be a clinician scientist doing mostly research.

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And that's what I did from 2009 to 2015 as a junior faculty, I had 75 to 80% of my time

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covered by research grants.

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And then it was not until 2015 that I got invited to actually join some of these educational

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leadership roles.

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And that's how I transitioned a little bit from a pure physician scientist to more roles

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as a leader and educator.

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My research interests are still the same.

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My interest is diabetes and diabetes-related comorbidities with a special emphasis in health

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disparities and the Hispanic and Latino population.

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But also along those lines, I've been trying to do some work in bias, implicit bias in

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patient provider communication and patient's outcomes.

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Well, that is so awesome.

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One of the things you speak to that I do want you to come back to is that you started off

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pretty research intensive.

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Now many times, I think for junior faculty that are coming in right now, many times they'll

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say, well, I just want to be 50-50.

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So that's how I want to start out.

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Could you speak to the advantages of starting out a lot more intensively research?

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Or could you speak to the benefits or the disadvantages of trying to start out kind

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of in a 50-50 or more clinical research split type role?

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Well, this is my personal opinion.

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But I think if you are really committed to be a physician scientist, less than 75% of

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research might not get you where you need to be.

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We all know that 50-50 is probably like 80 patient care than 20% research because always

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your patients will come first.

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And the reality is that you really at the beginning of your career, if you're really

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serious about it to get your papers, your grants, you really need that protected time.

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And I don't think 50% is enough.

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But that's my personal opinion.

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I have to say I was blessed that I was able to secure that from the beginning to be able

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to achieve a lot of this.

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I know that it's not possible for a lot of junior faculty to actually secure that amount

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of funding for research.

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And they have to start with whatever they can until they get to that level of getting

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their first K or their first R. But I have seen a lot of my colleagues and friends struggle

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with that 50-50 exactly because patient care will take over.

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And at the end, your research or your paper gets derailed from timelines because everything

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else takes over.

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Leonor, thank you so much for that perspective.

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And that's something that I think is important for people to know.

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I think, and maybe you could speak to this, it's not about giving up patient care.

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It's not about saying, well, I'm not seeing patients anymore.

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It's recognizing that you don't have the skill set and what it takes to build the skill set.

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And so you can always go back to more patient care if that's what you choose.

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But it is harder to make the transition the other way around.

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If you want to speak to why do you need so much time, what are you doing?

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It's just research.

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Well, I think once again, I think I mentioned earlier, one thing is you need time to get

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those papers out.

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And papers, if you're like me, they take long.

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They don't, I'm not a natural.

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So in order to do it well, you need that time of relaxation where you can put your brain

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in a relaxed mode to write your thoughts in paper.

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And that's one of the parts.

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The other thing is you also need time without distraction to think about your next ideas.

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And to be honest, I don't think I ever had enough time to do that because I was always

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writing something or in a meeting or doing the research.

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And I think you need to be intentional about blocking those two hours a day, three hours

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a day, whatever you can to just generate the ideas for your next grant.

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That's the way I learned from mentors that are very successful in this path.

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That's how they get to that next big R1 or that next big thing that is going to get their

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career into the next level.

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And sometimes as junior faculty, we don't incorporate that into our day by day.

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And that's where we get overwhelmed because sometimes we have ideas that are not fully

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developed and we try to write a grant when we're not ready.

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Right?

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Or the idea is not ready.

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Thank you.

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Thank you for sharing that perspective.

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Because what you were talking about is thinking as work.

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And so sometimes if we're not busy doing something, we feel like, well, we're not doing anything.

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And to be honest, we live in an environment or even in academia, we were like, well, what

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did you do?

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What are you doing?

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How many patients are you seeing?

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What's your RV use?

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But in reality, the ability to sit down and really hash out an idea and create something

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that you're going to actually continue to recreate over time, that does take time and

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it is work.

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And if people are questioning how much time you have available, because people will say,

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oh, you clearly have Thursday mornings free.

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Why don't you see one or two extra patients?

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Thinking is intensive and it needs time to be done well.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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I felt that pressure because I've never had more than 25% patient care.

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Not because I don't love patients.

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I love seeing my patients, but I realized my style is someone that wants to get my notes

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perfect.

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I want to know it all.

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I want to have it all done.

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And I realized it was taking so much time.

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It still takes a lot of time, even though I don't see a lot of patients.

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I still have a whole day of patient care where I try to do my notes and have everything ready.

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And if you add Cali four clinics a week, there goes your week.

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So you really need to actually be protective of time to generate ideas.

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Absolutely.

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And I think, Leonor, one of the things that people don't know when they're early career

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and they're just starting is there's not an awareness about how much time it actually

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takes.

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And it's one of those unconscious where you just don't know what you don't know.

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And to be honest, as you said earlier, there's so many faculty who are starting out without

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any protected time.

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And it really does make it hard.

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I wonder if you could speak about strategies to succeed when you don't start out with that

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level of protection.

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I think it's extremely hard to achieve anything if you don't have protection.

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What I share with my advicees or my mentees before you sign a contract, you actually need

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to figure out how to get that protected time because it's like signing for failure.

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If you don't do your due diligence ahead of time, it will be really hard.

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And I think I'm grateful to my mentor because when I was transitioning from being a fellow

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to a faculty, it was clear that my mentor actually helped me negotiate the time that

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I needed.

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And I can attest as someone that was relatively successful as a physician scientist that without

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that advice from my mentor, I don't think I would have been able to do much because I

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have seen that happen to some of my colleagues that didn't have the same type of mentorship

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that actually signed to do 50-50 or 80% clinical, 20% research.

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And then their research career goes downhill because they didn't have that time.

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So if research is really what you want to do, I question not to sign any contract that

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doesn't have any protective time for research.

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Thank you, Leronora, and I'm so happy that you said that because sometimes here's the

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thing about us as physicians, we've been doing the impossible from the beginning.

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From day one, we've been doing impossible things.

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And so there's this idea that we're going to be able to do it.

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And to be honest, research is just, it is a skills deficit.

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I mean, PhD scientists go to school for six, seven years.

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They're just doing research for the most part.

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They don't have clinical care responsibilities, all of that.

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It's a skillset you're building and it takes time to build skills.

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But if you don't even have the time to build a skill, where is it going to come from?

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And that's why people are miserable, trying to live life on the margins, taking your nights

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and your weekends to accomplish something that is really a full-time daytime job.

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So thank you.

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Thank you so much for sharing that.

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Speaking about the things that you love.

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So Leronora, one of the things I know about you is that you have not followed what people

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say you should do as much as you followed what you want to do.

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Now could you speak about that?

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Because that's not a very common perspective in academia.

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Yes.

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So I'm glad you're asking that question because I feel like a lot of people, when they look

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at my trajectory, here I do, especially because that's the only institution I know, they wonder

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what happened to this person.

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Because to be honest, I never follow a straight line.

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I never follow the traditional path.

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And it's not that I'm a rebel and I want to do things my way.

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That's not how I am.

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Actually, I like to follow rules.

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But I realized early in my career that I really wanted to do things that bring me joy.

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And if it was like being an advisor for the Latino Medical Student Association for free,

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I was going to do that because that was something that brought joy to my life.

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And I felt like I don't want to be miserable doing this type of work.

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Or if it's mentoring undergraduate students or high school students, I was going to go

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for it even if it was at the price of sacrificing maybe free time to generate my ideas and writing

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my papers.

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And I encourage people to do the same because when I was doing this, I got a lot of pushback

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from people that I consider traditionalists that felt that by just following my heart

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and doing things that I really enjoy, I was not going to be able to make it because I

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was not building my niche or I was not getting like my K or I was not getting my R. And the

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reality is that not that I didn't care, but I felt like why would I want to pursue that

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if I'm going to be unhappy and not making a difference the way I see I want to make a

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difference because that's also very personal.

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How do you want to make a difference?

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It's very individualized.

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So I just, every project that I do has to be something that brings me joy.

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If I don't see that as part of the process, then I won't do it.

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It's not going to be on my list of to do things.

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And I don't know if I answered your question correctly, but that's how I see my enrolling

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academia.

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Just having fun while I go and I work a lot, but I do things that bring me joy.

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So it's more like joyful working, not stressful working, if that makes sense.

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No, it's, it perfectly is understandable.

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I mean, I appreciate you saying that because here's the thing you said, you're working

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hard.

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So you're not saying I do the things I enjoy in life as a walk in the park.

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You're still challenged.

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It's still hard.

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And so what makes sense to me is that if you're going to work really hard and it's still going

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to be a challenging path, then why wouldn't you work in the things that you actually want

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to do?

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Why would you accept misery on top of how hard it is?

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Can you speak to some of that?

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Because there's a lot of people around us who do that and somehow they're successful.

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Yes.

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And they are very successful.

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I think we are surrounded by a lot of people like that, right?

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That you see them and you're like, Oh my God, they're doing all these wonderful things.

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But the reality is that you don't see that joyful person or their face does not reflect

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really how much passion they have on the work they do.

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I think I got that from my parents.

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Both of my parents were hard workers, but they always pursue something that brought

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them joy.

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So I have good role models and I also have mentors too here at Duke that I saw that are

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people that are really enjoying what they do.

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And you want to surround yourself with people like that because it's a tough role of things

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that we have to do.

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I'm sorry, I think I derailed from your question, but it.

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No, that's perfect.

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That's perfect.

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It is.

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It is because that is what I'm saying.

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It's possible.

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The reality is the advice that people give, like follow, maybe they say, follow this one

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mentor, just do what they do.

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Just keep going until you get the K, the R, everything, and then you can do what you like.

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It kind of is a trap because the moment you're successful, people expect that's all you do.

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And it's possible to have everything, all the accolades, all the awards and be really

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miserable.

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And at least for me, and it sounds like for you, Leonor, it's not worth it.

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And each person needs to decide whether they just want all the glory or they want to have

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joy in the journey.

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And I think you can have both if you're strategic.

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Yeah.

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I want to add to that because I think a lot of everybody's different.

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I didn't enter this space because I wanted the glory or the awards.

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I know I have received that as recognition of my work, but I never pursue that as my

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main goal.

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And I think that's where some people get derailed sometimes between the joy and the work because

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they focus too much on the awards, the Ks, the recognition.

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And believe me, when you do things with passion and love, those recognitions will get, you're

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going to get them.

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People are going to notice that you're doing it.

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And maybe it will take longer because you might be working behind the scenes and people

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might not realize all the things you're doing, but it will happen.

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So for junior faculty specifically, just do what you love and people will see it.

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Maybe not today or tomorrow, but it will happen at one point.

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The rewards are going to be there.

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Thank you, Lenore.

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You point out that it is the harder path.

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The path of doing what you enjoy, what brings you joy, what you're passionate about is the

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harder path because it's not as well worn, but the rewards are great.

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And so it's worth sticking with it.

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Yeah.

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Let me ask you this, Lenore, you're someone who I think has been very strategic.

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And for everyone who's listening, I've known Lenore since I was, I think a med student.

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I think she was a fellow med student.

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And so I've known her for a long time.

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You're giving up on eight.

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Well, she's very beautiful, very young looking.

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You should watch the video.

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She's beautiful.

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Yes.

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Lenore, you've been very strategic, right?

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Can you talk about some of the strategic moves you've made in this process?

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Yes, I am very strategic.

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My students will say that I always use that word when I'm advising my medical students

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and I'm very organized.

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Some thing that I encourage everybody to do is know what is expected from you.

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So I knew that I wanted to do things that brought me joy, but I also knew that I have

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to fulfill certain expectations to be able to move up the ladder.

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So I started as a medical instructor.

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And from the first day I signed my contract as a junior faculty, I already knew what was

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expected from me to be able to move to assistant professor.

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So I knew I had to get whatever number of papers, whatever grants I had to do.

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I put it on a place where I can revisit on a regular basis to make sure I was on track

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of achieving those expectations.

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The same when I was trying to get tenure.

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I knew that my career has shifted to a different direction, but I was very clear that the expectations

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for the institution that I worked at were like I had to get my papers, I have to get

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my grants, I have to get my national, international reputation.

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So I work in parallel while I was doing my joyful work, I was also working on the things

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that were expected, which was getting all my papers out and getting certain presentations

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and stuff like that.

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And I think that's the only way you can actually be successful and not get derailed.

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Because it is very easy to just follow your path and do everything you find joyful and

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then not pay attention to the things that are going to really count towards your success

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and moving up.

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And I, of course, people, I actually print out the promotion and tenure documents for

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my institution.

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I have it in a folder in my office.

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And once in a while, I will look it up, I'll make sure am I on track?

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What am I missing?

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What are the things I need to do?

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I also reach out to the individuals at my department that are responsible for promotion

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and tenure.

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Once in a while, I ask them, can you look at my CV and I'm on track?

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What am I missing?

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What are the things I need to do?

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And that's being very strategic on my part because I know I can get very distracted,

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something that I have to share.

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I cannot do one the same thing all the time, so I can be very distracted.

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But I also know myself that that will be a downside if I don't keep an eye on the long-term

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goal, which is getting full professor with tenure.

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That is awesome and thank you so much for sharing that, Leonor.

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I feel like you just gave a master class.

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That was just so perfect because the key is that in the academy, there are things that

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are valued and those things don't change going from institution to institution.

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People value publications and they value grants.

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And for many faculty, as you look through your appointment and promotions and tenure

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documents, those are things that feature quite consistently and not just those things.

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You talk about international reputation, national reputation, giving talks, that kind of thing.

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They're all pretty well detailed.

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And so as you're doing the things you love, yes, you want to make sure that you are layering

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your interest over what the institution values so that at the end, it double counts.

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It counts for your joy and it counts to give you credit that you've been doing work well.

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So that was fantastic.

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Thank you so much for laying that out.

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Well, that requires intentionality.

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It doesn't happen.

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You have to be strategic.

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Yes, yes.

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And you talk about involving people too.

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So it's not just you saying, I'm meeting the metrics.

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It's you asking other people objectively and saying, hey, how does this working?

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You gave me that advice and that really helps me because early on I was having meetings

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with a person who's in charge just saying, hey, here's my CV.

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What do you think?

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Here's my statement.

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What do you think?

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And that really helps me start being intentional about shaping what the statement is going

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to look like looking forward rather than trying to look backwards and make it all fit.

361
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Yes.

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And that's also an advice I give to junior faculty all the time because we want to have

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resistance against assistance.

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Right?

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We're like, why do I have to do it this way?

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Well, you nicely alluded to the fact that academic institutions have rules of what is

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expected and I don't see that changing much.

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It's not our institution thing.

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It's institutions that have the same expectations.

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And the earlier you know that and the earlier you have your allies and people that are going

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to advise you how to fulfill them in a proactive way, the easier the journey will be.

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I think sometimes it's like we want to resist until we get to the point, oh, I want to go

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to associate professor and then you look back, you're like, oh, but I don't have all the

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papers I'm supposed to have.

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Or I didn't do all the talks that I was supposed to do.

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And then that's where the frustration comes because you feel like you wasted your time.

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But if you do it early, then you know what you're aiming for, what your goal is.

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So it's not as hard.

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I'm not saying it's going to be easier, but it's less stressful.

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Thank you.

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00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:12,640
Thank you.

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00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:13,640
I love the way you put it.

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00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:14,840
It's like we want to be resistant.

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We want to resist, you know, the powers that be.

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But as long as we're in a system, it is worth knowing all the rules and then you can decide

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strategically which ones you follow, which ones you don't, but you got to know them.

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And then you've got to be strategic.

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You can't just pick and choose.

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And then you might get to the point where you're like, well, you can't move forward

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00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:34,560
in the way you want to.

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So I really appreciate you saying that.

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Thanks, Leonor.

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You're welcome.

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00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:42,440
So we're kind of getting closer to the end.

395
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And I have two more questions for you.

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00:24:44,120 --> 00:24:45,280
Hopefully we can get to those.

397
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:49,760
But one question is that at some point you decided to make that transition away from

398
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:50,960
research.

399
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:55,720
Could you tell me about what that transition looked like and how you set yourself up to

400
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,200
be where you are today and still keep some of that research?

401
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:05,160
Yeah, it was a very serendipitous situation for me.

402
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:11,960
In 2015, I was actually on a, I don't want to call a gap, but I took three months off

403
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,880
to deal with a lot of personal challenges I was facing.

404
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,960
And during that time, I received an email from a colleague who invited me to join the

405
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:27,160
Duke Master of Biomedical Science as one of the executive team members and an advisor.

406
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:31,280
And it was funny because I got the email and it was like, you know, this sounds great,

407
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:35,680
but right now I'm going to leave and I will be back in January.

408
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:40,120
Is this an opportunity that can wait until I get back so we can see it and talk about

409
00:25:40,120 --> 00:25:45,060
and see if this is really in alignment with what I want to do as I move forward?

410
00:25:45,060 --> 00:25:49,600
So that person was kind enough to say, you know what, there's no rush.

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Whenever you're ready, when you get back here in January, we'll meet in person, we'll talk

412
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:55,640
about it and see.

413
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:57,280
And then that's how it happened.

414
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:02,320
We met, I interviewed with the rest of the members of the executive team and it was a

415
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:03,320
match.

416
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:09,920
We actually, I think I found my tribe of people that I actually love to work with that are

417
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:15,140
extremely supportive, very interprofessional and collaborative environment.

418
00:26:15,140 --> 00:26:17,400
And I was like, yeah, I'll take the job.

419
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:18,400
That's great.

420
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:23,960
And that's how I actually started taking some of the leadership educational roles.

421
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:28,360
And I've been in this role for 10 years and it's been the best thing.

422
00:26:28,360 --> 00:26:33,800
I learned from the best in our school in education, I have to say.

423
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:38,880
And that's where I realized, you know what, this brings me more joy than submitting my

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00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:44,680
next K or getting rejected for my next paper.

425
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:46,840
And I started that transition.

426
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:51,000
So as part of that role, in addition to being a member of the executive team, I also advise

427
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:56,200
students that are doing the post-bacc or the master's degree to get to medical school.

428
00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:01,160
And I realized that that worked very well with my personality, like helping others achieve

429
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:06,640
their goals and helping people identify resource and all of that.

430
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:12,360
And then when the opportunity was open to submit applications to be an associate for

431
00:27:12,360 --> 00:27:17,240
students affairs, to be honest, I felt like I was not ready.

432
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:18,760
That was four years ago.

433
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:24,560
And I got so many emails from older people here saying, Leonor, you need to apply, Miss

434
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:26,400
Royce for you.

435
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,960
And I was like, oh, I don't know.

436
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:33,120
Sometimes we are like that as junior faculty, we are like, oh, I don't deserve it or I'm

437
00:27:33,120 --> 00:27:34,120
not ready.

438
00:27:34,120 --> 00:27:40,320
But because I got at least 10 emails from senior individuals saying like, go for it.

439
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:42,760
Well, I submitted my application.

440
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:49,640
I went to all the eight panels of the interviews, which was the most intense interview process

441
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,880
I've done in my life.

442
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:56,520
And then when I got the call from our vice dean of education saying, well, Leonor, everybody

443
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:57,520
seems to like you.

444
00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,960
I want to offer you the job.

445
00:27:59,960 --> 00:28:05,320
I accepted the job without asking, which is, remember my first advice to all of you, you

446
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,920
not sign anything without knowing what you're getting into.

447
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:09,920
But I say yes.

448
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:11,160
And I don't regret it.

449
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,360
It was the best decision I made.

450
00:28:14,360 --> 00:28:19,520
And then my other leadership role being the CTSI came from works that I was doing with

451
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:20,960
one of our colleagues here.

452
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:25,680
I was the director for one of her projects, a population health mapping project.

453
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:27,480
And then that project went very well.

454
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,120
It was for her and the chancellor.

455
00:28:30,120 --> 00:28:34,480
And then when the opportunity came for the CTSI, she was like, oh, Leonor, do you want

456
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:39,840
to join the CTSI as the associate director of the community engagement core?

457
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:41,040
And I say yes.

458
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:46,720
And then that's how I ended transitioning to leadership and education versus fully research

459
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:47,720
work.

460
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:49,760
That is so awesome.

461
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:55,520
You know, one of the things that comes up in your story, Leonor, is that you saw, well,

462
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:57,440
actually, you were in the right place at the right time.

463
00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,840
So you're connecting with the right people, doing the right things.

464
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:04,820
And then when an opportunity comes up, somebody invites you to it and you are paying attention

465
00:29:04,820 --> 00:29:08,840
to opportunity and recognizing a good opportunity when it comes.

466
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,560
And I think I appreciate that you share that because to be honest, that's how many of our

467
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:14,820
careers are serendipity.

468
00:29:14,820 --> 00:29:16,140
But it's not just luck.

469
00:29:16,140 --> 00:29:21,640
It's that because I'm showing up, because I'm clear about what I value, what I'm interested

470
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:26,560
in, the moment I'm showing up so people are able to offer me opportunities, but also when

471
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,640
the opportunity comes, I recognize it as an opportunity because I've been doing the work

472
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:32,920
of clarifying what I want to do.

473
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:39,000
And so it's beautifully said, because I think sometimes there's frustration from those of

474
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,480
us who are early career looking ahead saying, but how did you figure it out?

475
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:43,920
How did you get here?

476
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:48,720
And there's not necessarily like a puzzle that you're putting together to get here.

477
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,600
You're literally just taking one step at a time and the road is becoming clear in front

478
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:53,600
of you.

479
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,400
I wonder if that's fair to say.

480
00:29:55,400 --> 00:30:02,520
Yes, I think you nicely summarize exactly how I feel about my journey.

481
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:08,160
I feel that I'm very open to change.

482
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:13,200
I'm not afraid of change, which is something you have to embrace in academia because change

483
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:19,080
is inevitable, especially in the times we live where things are changing constantly

484
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,520
and embracing change with joy.

485
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:27,520
I think all our conversation today, joy will be the word and the feeling that I hope everybody

486
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:32,880
take and I put all my energy and effort and a hundred percent to it.

487
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,680
And people notice, I also share that with my students.

488
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:43,760
So I have done so many free things here at this institution that people were like, why

489
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,920
are you giving your free labor here?

490
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,920
And the reality was because I enjoy it.

491
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:55,360
And that free labor actually opens a lot of doors for me.

492
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:59,640
And I know as junior faculty, sometimes you will get the advice of learning how to say

493
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:05,920
no, but I actually changed that advice a little bit and say, learning how to say yes to the

494
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:11,280
right opportunities that are right for your values that are aligned with what you want

495
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:12,600
to do.

496
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:17,320
Because even when they are for free at the beginning, they will open a lot of doors that

497
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:25,120
will co-work effort and salary support, but you have to be open to embrace them.

498
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:32,320
I'm not asking every junior people that are listening to the podcast to just do free comedies,

499
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:33,320
every comedian.

500
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:34,840
That's not what I'm saying.

501
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:39,720
What I'm saying is that if an opportunity comes your way that is in alignment with what

502
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:45,280
brings you that joy that I keep talking about, take it because at the end you're going to

503
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,000
do a good job and people are going to notice.

504
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:52,720
And then when opportunities come with salary support and effort, you will be the first

505
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:54,720
name in their head.

506
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:59,520
And that's my whole story.

507
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:04,400
People knew I was doing things and when opportunity came, they were like, oh, Leonor will be great.

508
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,400
And then I will say, okay, now I need effort.

509
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,360
Do you have money to pay for my effort?

510
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:11,360
And they will say yes.

511
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:17,360
But if I haven't done the other free things before, I don't think people will have their

512
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,200
mind and their minds to consider.

513
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:26,040
That is so beautifully said, Leonor, and again, you speak to showing up and however you show

514
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:30,840
up and showing up joyfully and that helps people know that I like to work with Leonor.

515
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:31,840
How can I make it?

516
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,640
I got to make this more concrete and that those are opportunities that have come.

517
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:36,640
That's so awesome.

518
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:37,640
Wow.

519
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,880
We are at the end of this episode and to be honest, I wish we could keep going because

520
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,920
you've got so many amazing gems that you've just been dropping all along the way.

521
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:48,560
I have to go back and reflect on this episode.

522
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:53,640
But I do want to ask though, if there's anything you feel like we've left unsaid over the course

523
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:58,080
of the episode, what would you like to share with our audience as we close?

524
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:02,320
Yes, I can believe that time went so fast.

525
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,720
I also enjoyed this conversation a lot.

526
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:13,880
I want to make sure people don't misinterpret my joyfulness with not having faced struggles

527
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,880
because I think that's also really important.

528
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:18,600
It hasn't been an easy journey.

529
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:20,600
I had to work a lot.

530
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:29,160
I have neglected a lot of my personal life in a lot of ways, which I regret.

531
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:34,160
But if I go back, I don't regret it.

532
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:38,880
I think I'm being able to achieve a lot.

533
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,720
But at the end, you will have to sacrifice.

534
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:47,520
There's always this journey, no matter if we sing a cadena or whatever journey you pursue,

535
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,200
you will have to make sacrifice.

536
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:58,480
And what is important to think is, are the sacrifices are making worth making for what

537
00:33:58,480 --> 00:33:59,920
I'm going to get at the end?

538
00:33:59,920 --> 00:34:03,520
Because I don't want this episode to be all like Leona is joyful.

539
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,320
She does whatever you enjoy.

540
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,560
It's true, but I have challenges.

541
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:15,640
It hasn't been an easy journey for me as an individual from a minority background with

542
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:22,680
a big accent in an institution where I was very the minority when I got here.

543
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:27,800
I don't want to say I've been lucky, but I've been blessed to have good mentors that actually

544
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:28,800
helped me.

545
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,680
So this journey, but every day I encounter challenges.

546
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:34,320
It's not that I don't.

547
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:39,040
And I don't want to make sure I want to make sure people realize that.

548
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:43,880
You can still embrace the challenge and enjoy it.

549
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,120
Recognizing that it's part of life.

550
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,520
It's not only at the beginning.

551
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:49,520
Living comes with challenges.

552
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:54,800
You just need to learn what to do with them and keep going.

553
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,360
So I don't know if that's the end you wanted to get for your.

554
00:34:58,360 --> 00:34:59,560
It absolutely is.

555
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:01,060
It's beautifully said.

556
00:35:01,060 --> 00:35:05,240
It's beautifully said because it's like, it's going to be challenging no matter what you

557
00:35:05,240 --> 00:35:06,240
choose.

558
00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:11,280
So if you choose a challenge that you actually will feel at the end, you're like, okay, that

559
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:12,760
was a challenge I worked through.

560
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:17,840
I feel good about that rather than a challenge where you're like, what was the point of that?

561
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:24,960
I think in retrospect, you want to look back and say, okay, it was a hard journey, but

562
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:31,560
I feel proud of myself that I was able to overcome any challenge and I feel joyful and

563
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:36,560
didn't lose myself in the process, which is actually what I hope for everybody pursuing

564
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:40,200
this career in academic medicine.

565
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:42,520
And that is the last word.

566
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:44,880
I want to thank everybody for listening.

567
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,000
That was such a powerful episode.

568
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:51,520
Please share this with others who want to live joyfully within the academy while also

569
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:52,640
navigating challenges.

570
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,800
Leonor, thank you so much for being on the show.

571
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:56,920
Thank you for having me.

572
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:58,720
Have a wonderful rest of your day.

573
00:35:58,720 --> 00:35:59,720
I will you too.

574
00:35:59,720 --> 00:36:00,720
All right, everyone.

575
00:36:00,720 --> 00:36:15,840
I'll see you again next time on the Clinician Researcher Podcast.

576
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:21,200
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast where academic

577
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:26,600
clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they

578
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,000
have a mentor.

579
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:33,960
If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.

580
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:35,840
Someone else needs to hear it.

581
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,900
So take a minute right now and share it.

582
00:36:39,900 --> 00:36:45,360
As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation

583
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:58,880
of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do health