The player is loading ...
Aug. 9, 2024
Five steps to your first academic job
In today's episode, Dr. Onwuemene discusses the process of searching for academic jobs, emphasizing that it's important to consider a variety of factors beyond just the job itself.
Key points are the following:
- Know What You Want: Before searching for jobs, clearly define your personal and professional desires. Starting with what you want helps bridge the gap between your goals and what’s being offered, ensuring that you don’t settle for a job that doesn't align with your aspirations.
- Consider Location and Community: The location of a job matters, especially regarding support networks. Being in a supportive environment, whether in-person or virtual, is crucial for your mental and emotional well-being. Isolation can be detrimental, so choose a location where you can build or access a strong community.
- Evaluate the Job's Flexibility: Most jobs won't be perfect initially. Look for positions that offer opportunities to grow, adapt, and shape the role over time. Assess the work environment, including the openness of leadership and the potential for job evolution.
- Understand Promotion Metrics: It's important to understand the promotion criteria at the institution where you're applying. Even if you're not immediately focused on promotion, knowing the expectations can help you navigate your career path effectively and avoid being trapped in a role that doesn’t support your advancement.
- Negotiate Your Salary: Physicians often lack experience in salary negotiation due to the nature of medical training. However, it's crucial to negotiate your salary and benefits when starting a faculty position. Utilize resources like the AAMC compensation report to benchmark your salary and justify your requests. Don’t accept the first offer without careful consideration and negotiation.
The overarching theme is to be intentional and strategic in your job search, focusing on personal satisfaction, support systems, and long-term career growth rather than simply accepting the first opportunity that comes your way.
Sponsor/Advertising/Monetization Information:
This episode is sponsored by Coag Coach LLC, a leading provider of coaching resources for clinicians transitioning to become research leaders. Coag Coach LLC is committed to supporting clinicians in their scholarship.
Looking for a coach?
Sign up for a coaching discovery call today: https://www.coagcoach.com/service-page/consultation-call-1
Transcript
1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,860
Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills
2
00:00:05,860 --> 00:00:11,260
to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.
3
00:00:11,260 --> 00:00:17,340
As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.
4
00:00:17,340 --> 00:00:22,380
When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find
5
00:00:22,380 --> 00:00:27,780
that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research
6
00:00:27,780 --> 00:00:29,200
program.
7
00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:35,480
Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.
8
00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:40,580
However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.
9
00:00:40,580 --> 00:00:46,200
For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians
10
00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,800
the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.
11
00:00:51,800 --> 00:01:01,800
Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.
12
00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:05,600
Well hello everyone, welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast.
13
00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:10,040
I'm your host Toyosi Onwuemene, and I am super excited to be talking with you today.
14
00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:11,960
Thank you so much for tuning in.
15
00:01:11,960 --> 00:01:17,680
Today I am bringing you an episode from a recent coaching conversation that I had with
16
00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:24,880
my clients, excited to share this one with you, and enjoy listening.
17
00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,600
Welcome and thank you for being here today, and for everyone who's catching the replay.
18
00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:29,600
Hello.
19
00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:32,400
So today I'm talking about looking for academic jobs.
20
00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:36,040
I'm talking about looking for academic jobs and maybe...
21
00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:37,600
I'm back.
22
00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:39,440
Yes, welcome back.
23
00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:43,800
All right, so I'm talking about looking for academic jobs, and maybe it's not so much
24
00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,180
looking for academic jobs as looking for jobs overall.
25
00:01:47,180 --> 00:01:52,320
Many of us will kind of want to look for just academic jobs, but I do want to talk about
26
00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:56,960
the breadth and the depth of what is available as far as the jobs want.
27
00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:57,960
Alison, welcome.
28
00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,000
I'm talking about looking for jobs.
29
00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:01,000
Okay.
30
00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:06,600
So I will say that when I started looking for jobs, I had my big decision.
31
00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:10,800
I definitely want to stay in academics, and to be honest, the academic decision was made
32
00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:13,120
for me the moment I started medical school.
33
00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:17,440
I just knew that the medical school environment was the environment I wanted to stay in, and
34
00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:21,000
so I knew I was going to do very much an academic job.
35
00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:26,560
But I think the next big decision, other than academics, was that I wanted...
36
00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:31,800
We were pretty particular about location, because at the time we had one child who was
37
00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:38,840
maybe one and a half years old, and we realized that we just wanted to be supported as much
38
00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:39,840
as we could.
39
00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:44,120
And so we were either going to stay where we were at the time in Chicago, where we already
40
00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:48,940
had a community, or we were going to move to North Carolina, which is where we had family,
41
00:02:48,940 --> 00:02:51,120
and we had kind of like a ready-made community.
42
00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:55,700
So we were pretty big on where we were going to stay or we were going to move to.
43
00:02:55,700 --> 00:03:00,040
And then I wanted to do research, and I knew that I was staying in academics so I could
44
00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:01,040
do research.
45
00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:02,040
That was like number three, actually.
46
00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:06,020
It probably was more number one, because it was my driving force.
47
00:03:06,020 --> 00:03:09,880
I assumed that academia meant a research job.
48
00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:11,540
That's what I assumed.
49
00:03:11,540 --> 00:03:16,460
And so I was surprised when I started looking for jobs, and what people were offering me
50
00:03:16,460 --> 00:03:21,400
was pretty much a full-time clinical, wow, you've got a lot of patients, and you're pretty
51
00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:23,760
much just going to see patients all the time, jobs.
52
00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:29,600
And I was so surprised, because most of my mentors who at the time, they're in their
53
00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:35,440
70s, one of them in his 80s, was very much like, you have to make sure you accept a 75%
54
00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:36,960
protected time job.
55
00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:41,100
All of that, and that's what I was looking for, but nobody was offering it to me, which
56
00:03:41,100 --> 00:03:42,100
is interesting.
57
00:03:42,100 --> 00:03:48,080
Anyway, so I ultimately selected a job that didn't necessarily give me the protected time
58
00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:51,540
I wanted, but had the promise of protected time.
59
00:03:51,540 --> 00:03:56,200
And I didn't realize that was a fallacy when I first started, the whole idea that you're
60
00:03:56,200 --> 00:04:01,720
going to come from clinical training, and you're going to be able to accept a research
61
00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:02,720
job in academia.
62
00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,240
And I'll talk about that in just a little bit.
63
00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,680
But so I ended up actually accepting the job I didn't want.
64
00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:12,840
And I think at the time, I thought when they were offering me 20% protected time, and that
65
00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:18,920
was truly protected time, 20% time in an 80% clinical role is really just administrative
66
00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:22,400
time, because everybody needs administrative time, and administrative time to catch up
67
00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:25,720
on notes, make phone calls, all of that, that's not protected time.
68
00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:27,360
I didn't recognize that.
69
00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:29,640
I took the job I didn't want.
70
00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:34,200
Anyway, so I was seeing patients five days a week, and then I got pregnant with my second
71
00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:35,440
child.
72
00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:36,440
And it was just rough.
73
00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:40,040
It was so rough, because I'm the kind of person who really loves to sit in corners and think,
74
00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:45,120
I don't mind seeing people talking to them as long as I can go back to a place to rest
75
00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:46,480
and recover.
76
00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:50,480
And I was doing a job where I was doing aphoresis specifically, which I think that our job in
77
00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:55,400
aphoresis is to say no as much as possible, unless the other person can figure out a way
78
00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:56,820
to convince you to say yes.
79
00:04:56,820 --> 00:05:00,640
So it's very, it was just, it was kind of job that at the end of the day, I always wanted
80
00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:01,640
to recover from.
81
00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:03,740
And there really wasn't a space for recovering.
82
00:05:03,740 --> 00:05:05,600
I was a miserable person.
83
00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:10,320
And then when it came to negotiating my first job and negotiating salary, I had no frame
84
00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:12,920
of reference for what my salary should be.
85
00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:18,160
I accepted whatever it is that they gave me as the anchor.
86
00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,920
And I mean, I negotiated up because people always said women don't negotiate.
87
00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:26,760
I did negotiate, but I think I wasn't prepared for the fact that it was such a low ball offer.
88
00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:28,800
My negotiation was pretty silly.
89
00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:30,160
Anyway, I know better now.
90
00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:35,260
So here I am to share some thoughts with you about what you should be thinking about as
91
00:05:35,260 --> 00:05:36,760
you're looking for jobs.
92
00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:37,760
Okay.
93
00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:43,020
I do think the most important thing about looking for jobs is always start with what
94
00:05:43,020 --> 00:05:44,200
you want.
95
00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:45,580
Start with what you want.
96
00:05:45,580 --> 00:05:49,760
Many times I hear people looking for jobs and they'll say, oh, we'll just see what's
97
00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:50,760
available.
98
00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:52,360
We'll just see what's available.
99
00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:56,980
And I want to say at the end of the day, the truth is you are not necessarily, I mean,
100
00:05:56,980 --> 00:05:58,600
you're not the one offering yourself a job.
101
00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:04,120
So yes, you are going to shape what's available to yourself, but you can't start with what's
102
00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:05,120
available.
103
00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:08,840
You have to start with what you want so that you can understand the gap between what you
104
00:06:08,840 --> 00:06:10,560
want and what you're being offered.
105
00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:15,300
And that's important because to be honest, most of us, for example, the job I have today
106
00:06:15,300 --> 00:06:18,680
looks nothing like the job I started with.
107
00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:23,040
And I'm at the same institution, but knowing what you want allows you to continue to shape
108
00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:26,160
and shape and shape until you're like, yep, this is the job I want.
109
00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:27,160
Right.
110
00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:31,280
And just as you change, your needs and your wants will change as well.
111
00:06:31,280 --> 00:06:36,280
But the most important place, number one, like without question, is start with what
112
00:06:36,280 --> 00:06:37,840
you want.
113
00:06:37,840 --> 00:06:40,440
Don't say, oh, we'll just see what's available.
114
00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:42,120
Start with what you want.
115
00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:46,880
And the reason it's important to start with what you want is because if you are not happy
116
00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:50,560
in your job, I mean, it's just, it's a problem.
117
00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:52,400
You spend a lot of time working.
118
00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:54,260
You spend a lot of time with your colleagues.
119
00:06:54,260 --> 00:06:57,520
And if you don't have a job that you want, it'll be miserable.
120
00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:01,600
And there is no, in medicine, I think we've been in our training where we spend a lot
121
00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:07,080
of time being miserable and there's no need to continue to perpetuate the misery.
122
00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:08,760
And at some point you do need to stop.
123
00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:12,160
And I think training is a good time to stop being miserable, to say, you know what, I'm
124
00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:16,360
not just here for the glory of this institution and its beautiful name.
125
00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:18,240
I'm here because of what I want to build.
126
00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:22,820
And so I think the harder thing for us to do is to be very clear on what you want.
127
00:07:22,820 --> 00:07:26,240
Because to be honest, in our training, we've never thought about what we want.
128
00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:29,920
We're always, for the most part, we're big on like, well, okay, well, I need internal
129
00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:30,920
medicine training.
130
00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:32,720
This is one of the institutions that does it really well.
131
00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:34,280
Okay, let's go here.
132
00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:38,760
And a lot of what we wanted is driven by what the institution has available.
133
00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:43,240
And we have the sense that the institution makes us because it's, you know, the institution
134
00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:44,240
has a name.
135
00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:47,880
At the end of the day, you are the one who makes the institution the institution and
136
00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,880
you're the one bringing your skills and expertise to the institution.
137
00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:52,160
The institution doesn't make you.
138
00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:53,160
You make the institution.
139
00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:55,760
And so you are the gift to the institution.
140
00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:57,680
It's important to know that.
141
00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,040
So what does it take to know what you want?
142
00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:04,160
It takes thinking about it and talking to people and thinking about what is important
143
00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:05,160
to me.
144
00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:08,840
What are the things that I like about my job or I like about medicine?
145
00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:10,620
What are the things I hate?
146
00:08:10,620 --> 00:08:15,920
And how can I minimize the things I hate so I can maximize the things I like?
147
00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:18,480
I think all along I said I wanted to do research.
148
00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:24,560
And what I realize now is that I'm not sure it was necessarily research that was my goal.
149
00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:31,160
As much as I really like the idea of academia for being able to really think clearly and
150
00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:33,920
think long and deeply about things.
151
00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:37,120
I love to think and I love to teach.
152
00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:38,840
Research has those opportunities.
153
00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:40,040
And so research makes sense to me.
154
00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:44,200
And even now research makes sense to me in a way that it didn't when I first started.
155
00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,080
But it's important to know who you are.
156
00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:47,080
I'm the kind of person.
157
00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:48,720
I'm an introvert too.
158
00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:50,740
I love to be around people.
159
00:08:50,740 --> 00:08:53,200
I think people think I'm mostly extroverted.
160
00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:54,800
But I need times to recover.
161
00:08:54,800 --> 00:09:00,040
And the whole idea of just being on the run every day without fail is just very hard for
162
00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:01,040
me.
163
00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:02,960
There needs to be space for me to recover.
164
00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:04,760
So knowing yourself is important.
165
00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,600
But number one is to start with what you want.
166
00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:11,960
And that really starts with understanding who you are and how you want to live your
167
00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:12,960
life.
168
00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:15,440
It's not even so much how you want to practice, what patients you want to see.
169
00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:17,040
It's just who do you want to be?
170
00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:19,360
How do you want to feel at the end of the day?
171
00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:22,040
Because all the rest of the stuff is negotiable.
172
00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:24,900
You can decide I want to see only patients with lymphoma.
173
00:09:24,900 --> 00:09:27,480
You can decide I only want to do MDS.
174
00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:31,140
And ultimately you can shape your clinic experience.
175
00:09:31,140 --> 00:09:32,960
You can shape your faculty experience.
176
00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:36,880
And if you're in an academic medical center, there's a whole range of jobs you can do.
177
00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:40,180
And your job is going to be changing over time.
178
00:09:40,180 --> 00:09:42,100
So first of all, start with what you want.
179
00:09:42,100 --> 00:09:43,100
That's number one.
180
00:09:43,100 --> 00:09:45,640
Number two, think about location.
181
00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:49,440
Okay, so for many of us in our medical training, we just went everywhere.
182
00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:51,700
Wherever it was like, oh, Duke is the best.
183
00:09:51,700 --> 00:09:52,700
I'm going there.
184
00:09:52,700 --> 00:09:54,360
That's where you went.
185
00:09:54,360 --> 00:10:00,680
I do think that the more seasoned you get, I think it becomes important that you are
186
00:10:00,680 --> 00:10:04,920
surrounded by communities that support you.
187
00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:09,720
It's kind of like if you played basketball at the high school level and it was hard at
188
00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,960
high school, then you go to the big leagues.
189
00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:17,440
You know, and that's when you start your faculty positions, like the big leagues where people
190
00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:19,720
don't, they're not there to cheer you on.
191
00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:23,600
Some people are there to like destroy you for whatever reason, right?
192
00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:27,680
I mean, there are people who just for whatever reason, they don't want you to succeed.
193
00:10:27,680 --> 00:10:28,680
Think of it as a ball game.
194
00:10:28,680 --> 00:10:33,240
There's the side that's cheering for your team and the side that's not cheering.
195
00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:35,240
You're not playing on home territory.
196
00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:39,200
And people have different reasons or different ideas about who they think should be successful.
197
00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:41,720
Some people are going to be downright evil to you.
198
00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:42,760
They're just going to be.
199
00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:44,680
And it's not even a thing to be sad about.
200
00:10:44,680 --> 00:10:46,360
It's just to be like, oh, okay.
201
00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,000
I've identified you as one of those people who's going to be evil to me.
202
00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:50,880
Thank you so much for showing yourself.
203
00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:56,240
And so to be able to play at the level, you really need to be surrounded by a community
204
00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:59,500
of supporters who believes in you no matter what.
205
00:10:59,500 --> 00:11:02,000
You can build that for yourself wherever you go.
206
00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:06,520
Absolutely can't, but you do need to be intentional about it.
207
00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:10,120
And so you need to think about location.
208
00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,360
Where are there going to be people who love me, who support me, who encourage me, where
209
00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:15,440
I can go and meet my people?
210
00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:18,280
Because when you're at work, you're on.
211
00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:24,640
I mean, some people are in environments where it's totally nurturing, totally supportive.
212
00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:26,320
I want to say most people are not.
213
00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:30,520
If you come into any environment and you have any idea that's different from the status
214
00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:34,960
quo, either you want to do research that nobody else is doing, or you feel like things in
215
00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:39,960
medicine are not equitable and need to change, anything at all you think about that deviates
216
00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:43,120
from the status quo, you will find that you will make enemies very quickly.
217
00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:47,280
Because there are people whose lives depend on nothing changing, everything staying the
218
00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:48,280
same.
219
00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:51,000
So everywhere you go, people will say, well, you want change.
220
00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:52,760
We want everything to be different.
221
00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:56,760
And in reality, people don't want change because change means they have to change.
222
00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:57,820
Nobody wants change.
223
00:11:57,820 --> 00:12:00,520
They lie to you if they say they don't, they want change.
224
00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:04,640
Most people don't because it really takes a lot of work in terms of personal development
225
00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:06,660
to be someone who embraces change.
226
00:12:06,660 --> 00:12:11,600
And so to be honest, if you want anything at all in medicine to be different, and I
227
00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:15,360
believe that most of us do, you will find that there will be opposition.
228
00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:17,920
And so it's okay to have opposition.
229
00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:23,700
Many of us already know what that feels like, but you can survive better, you can do better
230
00:12:23,700 --> 00:12:25,680
knowing that you have a community.
231
00:12:25,680 --> 00:12:28,680
Now do you have to have the community in that geographic location?
232
00:12:28,680 --> 00:12:29,680
Not necessarily.
233
00:12:29,680 --> 00:12:34,640
Now, especially post COVID, many of us have virtual communities and we can build those
234
00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:36,880
virtual communities if we don't have them.
235
00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:40,280
But I want to say that one of the biggest threats to mental and emotional health is
236
00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:41,760
isolation.
237
00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:45,320
I want to say that again, one of the biggest threats to mental and emotional health is
238
00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:47,000
isolation.
239
00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:51,160
And so what you want to make sure is that you're not going to be isolated.
240
00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:55,160
Whatever you need to do, I want you to think about that as you look for jobs.
241
00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:59,400
And it's so important because honestly, I mean, there are going to be times where people
242
00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,600
are going to bait you because they want you to get mad.
243
00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:03,600
They want you to self-destruct.
244
00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:08,160
They're going to trip you up intentionally so that you can fall.
245
00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:09,160
And it's different.
246
00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:14,320
It's different from the supportive communities you came from in training and residency and
247
00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:15,980
med school.
248
00:13:15,980 --> 00:13:19,660
And you want to know that you can find people who will encourage you and support you as
249
00:13:19,660 --> 00:13:21,080
you navigate that.
250
00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:25,380
You are more than capable, absolutely more than capable, but you want to be supported
251
00:13:25,380 --> 00:13:26,460
as you navigate that.
252
00:13:26,460 --> 00:13:30,640
So number two, number two is really think about location and not so much geographic
253
00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:35,200
location though I do mean that too, but really communities that are going to nurture you
254
00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:37,320
so that you can continue to thrive.
255
00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:38,320
All right.
256
00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:40,240
Number three is the job.
257
00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:42,960
Job is not number one or two, but number three is the job.
258
00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:43,960
Here's the truth.
259
00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:49,920
Most of the jobs that you first of all find are not going to be exactly what you want.
260
00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:54,280
What you're going to do is shape them over time to be the kind of job you want.
261
00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:58,400
So what you're really looking for is you're looking for the seed of goodness, right, in
262
00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:00,360
the job that you're going for.
263
00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,340
You're not necessarily looking for the perfect job.
264
00:14:02,340 --> 00:14:06,780
You may not find the perfect job though rarely you could, but what you're looking for is
265
00:14:06,780 --> 00:14:09,960
is there opportunity to change, shift, adapt?
266
00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:13,000
Is there opportunity to move things a little bit?
267
00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:15,240
And then, and you'll have a sense of that.
268
00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,280
Who's your division chief or your division director?
269
00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,640
How open are they?
270
00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:26,640
You'll get a sense of just the community, the vibes of the place that you're in as you
271
00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:28,780
share the ideas that you have.
272
00:14:28,780 --> 00:14:34,200
So number three really is the job, but also seeing to what extent is that job movable
273
00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:36,560
rather than being set in stone?
274
00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:37,640
That's number three.
275
00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:43,120
As part of number three, what you want to do is you want to go find their metrics for
276
00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:44,120
promotion.
277
00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:49,280
Now, I think institutions are becoming more clear about what promotion metrics are, but
278
00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:53,720
for the most part you have to go find it and say, okay, here are the metrics for promotion.
279
00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:55,900
Now some people are like, I don't even care about promotion.
280
00:14:55,900 --> 00:15:00,000
I just want to say that if you're in an academic medical center, you do need to care about
281
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:01,000
promotion.
282
00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:04,540
You may decide I don't want to be promoted, but you do need to know exactly what it takes
283
00:15:04,540 --> 00:15:05,540
to be promoted.
284
00:15:05,540 --> 00:15:10,040
Whether you choose to do it or not, it's fine, but you do need to know so that you can actively
285
00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:14,320
say don't even want to do that even though I know it's necessary for promotion.
286
00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:18,320
You want to know what I think the challenge is that people say I don't care and they don't
287
00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:19,320
know.
288
00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:21,360
And then when they finally are like, wait a minute, I do care.
289
00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:24,740
Then it's like, oh, now I'm just starting to figure it out.
290
00:15:24,740 --> 00:15:28,700
The reason you want to know upfront before you even accept the job offer is you want
291
00:15:28,700 --> 00:15:30,760
to know what they value.
292
00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:35,360
Here's the challenge that happens for a lot of physicians.
293
00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:40,600
Many times people, even in academia, are growing, growing more towards just full-time clinical
294
00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:42,980
work for academic physicians.
295
00:15:42,980 --> 00:15:46,460
So it's like you don't get to pay a private practice, but you're working like a private
296
00:15:46,460 --> 00:15:47,720
practice doc.
297
00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:49,520
It's becoming increasingly common.
298
00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:55,240
However, as much as they put you to work in clinical full-time, then they also are grading
299
00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:57,140
you on the metrics of academia.
300
00:15:57,140 --> 00:16:02,120
So it's like, oh, your publication record, your reputation, which is like you have no
301
00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,120
reputation unless you're publishing or giving talks.
302
00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:09,240
They grade you on research and you may not necessarily be the one leading research, but
303
00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:11,560
are you part of collaborative research teams?
304
00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:12,560
Do you do team science?
305
00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:13,840
That kind of thing.
306
00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:20,820
So if they are grading you based on academic work, but you have no space in your schedule
307
00:16:20,820 --> 00:16:25,680
for said academic work, they are setting you up to be not promotable.
308
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:26,680
That's really important.
309
00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,840
Now, does that mean, oh, there you go.
310
00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:31,080
You only give me clinical work.
311
00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:32,680
I have no space to be promotable.
312
00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:33,680
I'm not coming to this job.
313
00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:34,680
It doesn't mean that.
314
00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:39,040
But it does mean you get to say, because the ball is in your court when you're negotiating
315
00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:43,800
your job, you'll get to say, hey, here I see you put me in clinic for days a week.
316
00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:44,800
Okay.
317
00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:47,040
I can manage that, I think.
318
00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:51,000
But I'm also seeing here that you need me to have published 10 manuscripts to be able
319
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,960
to move from assistant to associate.
320
00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,040
Where is the time and effort for this piece?
321
00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,120
That's just an important question to ask.
322
00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,200
So people can really start to say, can they be honest with you?
323
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:03,640
Then you say, well, you know what?
324
00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:05,360
Actually, we don't want clinicians to be promoted.
325
00:17:05,360 --> 00:17:08,960
Then you know, you're going to be like, okay, maybe this is not the space for me.
326
00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:11,160
Or you can say, yeah, yeah, yeah, the money is good.
327
00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:12,320
I don't care about that.
328
00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:13,720
But you get to choose.
329
00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:18,720
And so it's important to get the metrics for promotion, see what they value.
330
00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,400
And every institution has different tracks for promotion now, I think.
331
00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:24,320
There's tenure track, there's non-tenure track.
332
00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:28,680
But no matter the track, reputation still matters.
333
00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:30,960
Scholarly productivity still matters.
334
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:35,440
And you want to make sure that if those things are valued, because they put them in the promotion
335
00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:42,360
and tenure materials, that you also have the opportunity within your job description to
336
00:17:42,360 --> 00:17:43,360
do them.
337
00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:46,080
And if you don't ask the question, why?
338
00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:47,080
Okay.
339
00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:51,040
So that's really about the job and the environment for the job.
340
00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:52,440
That's number three.
341
00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:55,360
Number four, okay, you got to think about money.
342
00:17:55,360 --> 00:17:58,280
You absolutely need to think about your salary.
343
00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,080
One of the things that physicians don't do well is think about money.
344
00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:04,000
Because to be honest, in our training, I mean, medical school, you're just looking for how
345
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,120
do I pay my medical school debt, right?
346
00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:09,420
Many people take out loans, not everybody.
347
00:18:09,420 --> 00:18:10,420
Most of us take out loans.
348
00:18:10,420 --> 00:18:12,520
So we just always think about giving, giving, giving, right?
349
00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:13,720
We're applying for medical schools.
350
00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:15,480
In the past, we fly all over the country.
351
00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,800
We're spending our own money trying to get into medical school.
352
00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:19,800
You get to residency.
353
00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:21,840
Well, you're not negotiating salary.
354
00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:23,400
It's just PGY4 is PGY4.
355
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,000
Sorry, here's what you get.
356
00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:26,560
Here's what you get.
357
00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:27,960
You get to fellowship, it's the same thing.
358
00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:28,960
You're not negotiating anything.
359
00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:33,480
You get to your faculty job, it's the first time you're expected.
360
00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,200
There is an expectation for negotiation.
361
00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:37,680
Expectation.
362
00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,480
And so you've got to be prepared to negotiate.
363
00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:43,120
I will say don't negotiate alone.
364
00:18:43,120 --> 00:18:44,120
I did that.
365
00:18:44,120 --> 00:18:47,760
I was totally like, okay, well, I'm supposed to negotiate, but I had no idea what I was
366
00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:48,760
supposed to negotiate.
367
00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:52,600
I negotiated by myself and I ended up with a very, very, very bad deal.
368
00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:57,360
It took them years to, it took me years to unravel the bad deal, you know?
369
00:18:57,360 --> 00:18:59,280
And I'm still figuring it out.
370
00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:01,440
But it's really important to negotiate.
371
00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:05,920
No matter how great the offer, you're like, oh my gosh, this money is so stupid.
372
00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,080
Oh my gosh, I love it.
373
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:10,680
And even accept at face value.
374
00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:17,520
At a minimum, what you need to do is find the AAMC salary compensation report.
375
00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:19,440
They print it annually.
376
00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:25,560
As long as your academic medical center contributes to that data, you get the report for $60.
377
00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:27,600
Don't say I don't have $60.
378
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:28,680
Is very, very important.
379
00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:32,700
And if you don't have $60 or you don't have access to it, because if you are not part
380
00:19:32,700 --> 00:19:37,560
of an institution that contributes to this data, then you pay $1,500 for the report.
381
00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:38,560
I have the report.
382
00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:40,480
At a minimum, just ask me.
383
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:44,080
We will look it up together and I'll say, this is a salary based on the part of the
384
00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:46,440
country you're in, blah, blah, blah.
385
00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:50,760
There's 10th percentile, 25th percentile, 50th percentile.
386
00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:54,800
At a minimum, aim for the median as like, this is what I want.
387
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,800
And you know what the thing about negotiation is?
388
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:03,480
As long as you have a clear justification for what you're negotiating, you have every
389
00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:05,120
right to ask for it.
390
00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:11,920
All you have to say is that the median salary at the AAMC benchmark across institutions
391
00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:16,760
that are private in the Southeast United States is $353,000.
392
00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:18,200
You don't have to ask any questions.
393
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:20,160
And they can argue that.
394
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:24,120
They can come and say, well, we don't really do the median, blah, blah, blah.
395
00:20:24,120 --> 00:20:28,400
Then you can say, well, if you don't do the median, how will you make up for this for
396
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:29,400
me?
397
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:30,680
What are the other benefits?
398
00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:34,640
So it's hard to do because we don't do that.
399
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:37,200
You had no practice for 10 years.
400
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:42,120
You've been just doing stuff and accepting at face value what people give you.
401
00:20:42,120 --> 00:20:46,540
But when you go for your first faculty position, don't be desperate.
402
00:20:46,540 --> 00:20:50,720
Take all the time you need, but you need to negotiate.
403
00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:55,720
Now one of the things that's challenging is that we tend to be desperate when we come
404
00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,600
to our faculty jobs because we're just like, I just need to pay off my student loan debt.
405
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,240
I just, I need to start this job yesterday.
406
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,320
Like I finished fellowship July, June 30th.
407
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,600
I need a job July 1st because I can't afford life without the job.
408
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:10,000
Don't be desperate.
409
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,880
You are full fledged attending once you finish residency.
410
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,360
Even if you didn't finish residency, you can still work.
411
00:21:16,360 --> 00:21:22,060
Go find a locum's job and do it until you feel like you have the position that you really
412
00:21:22,060 --> 00:21:27,520
want or the salary that makes sense for you or the benefits that make sense for you.
413
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,400
Don't accept a job out of desperation.
414
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,280
Whatever they give you, review it with a team.
415
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:38,840
Now let me tell you that when academic institutions are negotiating with you, they're negotiating
416
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:40,040
as a team.
417
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,920
No division chief makes a decision by himself.
418
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:48,120
He takes whatever it is you say you want, takes it to like a team and then they say,
419
00:21:48,120 --> 00:21:49,920
oh no, we don't want to give her this much.
420
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:50,920
No, no, no.
421
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:51,920
This is what we want to do.
422
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:52,920
This is what we want to do.
423
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:53,920
And then they come back to you.
424
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:59,040
So if this big bad institution has been around for hundreds of years is negotiating as a
425
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,360
team, please don't do it by yourself.
426
00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:05,560
At a minimum, find someone who's senior who you can just talk with and be like, hey, what's
427
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:06,560
your salary?
428
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:07,560
How did you negotiate this?
429
00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:09,760
How can I negotiate it?
430
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,540
And do the negotiation, but don't do it by yourself.
431
00:22:12,540 --> 00:22:14,080
They're not doing it alone.
432
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:15,540
You don't do it alone.
433
00:22:15,540 --> 00:22:17,720
You have someone look at the contract with you.
434
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:19,240
You have someone help you.
435
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:24,240
And one of the things that I worked with a mentor when I did my second negotiation, I
436
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:29,640
didn't do the first one with anybody, but I would get it and she would say, great, is
437
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:30,640
this what you want?
438
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:31,640
What's the median salary?
439
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:32,640
I was like, I don't know.
440
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:33,880
Go find out the median salary.
441
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,360
What kind of support is expected for someone who's studying research?
442
00:22:36,360 --> 00:22:37,400
Go find that out.
443
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,440
What is common as far as research package?
444
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:41,780
Go find that out and then write a letter.
445
00:22:41,780 --> 00:22:46,540
So for each phase of the negotiation, that was she wouldn't allow me to do anything verbal.
446
00:22:46,540 --> 00:22:48,840
I would always respond with a formal signed letter.
447
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,320
I would say, thank you so much for the offer that I see, blah, blah, blah.
448
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,040
Here's where I want to, you know.
449
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:57,680
And then, you know, they can talk and you think you're talking to friends, but it's
450
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:01,720
a formal contract negotiation and that is exactly how you should treat it.
451
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:03,280
Again, you're not used to doing that.
452
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:04,680
So don't try to do it by yourself.
453
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:10,400
I really, really, if you do, if you learn nothing at all, I, every job search should
454
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:15,040
always be done with someone supporting you, someone in your court, preferably a team,
455
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,560
but at least one more person other than you.
456
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:18,760
So that's the salary.
457
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:23,140
Number four, the reason you really want to negotiate the most, the highest salary you
458
00:23:23,140 --> 00:23:28,280
can get for the work you do is because to be honest, you're trading life years for money.
459
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,000
You are, you know, you spend a lot of time working.
460
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:32,000
You absolutely do.
461
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,960
What you want to do is you want to make sure you command a salary so that you don't have
462
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:40,280
to go find, you know, have to find the moonlighting job to make up your salary.
463
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:41,400
And a lot of people do that.
464
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,920
And to be honest, gosh, that's more time.
465
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:44,920
Kills you.
466
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:49,200
And, you know, earn the highest you can and then decide I want to go part time and earn
467
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:50,880
a third of it, whatever.
468
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:56,040
But just make sure that you get maximum value for the time you invest.
469
00:23:56,040 --> 00:24:00,360
And especially if you're underrepresented, if you're a woman, people will do their best
470
00:24:00,360 --> 00:24:04,560
to give you less than is standard.
471
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:09,360
That's why you do need to work with somebody to make sure that you get the maximum value
472
00:24:09,360 --> 00:24:11,200
for the money that you have.
473
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:16,120
I will tell you that as a physician, your capital is an opportunity to invest so that
474
00:24:16,120 --> 00:24:22,640
you can ultimately become financially independent, you know, and so the more you have to be able
475
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,000
to invest, the better it is for you.
476
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,560
And that's why it is really important.
477
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:29,480
Don't let anybody tell you it's not important.
478
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:30,480
Absolutely is important.
479
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:31,800
So please think about that.
480
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:35,600
The fifth thing and the last thing that I would say about what you should be thinking
481
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:40,720
about in the job is to be thinking about like what package would you negotiate for yourself?
482
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,260
Definitely, even if you're just coming out as a full time clinician, the question is
483
00:24:44,260 --> 00:24:48,160
what support do you have for the job you're being hired to do?
484
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:52,480
I, oh my goodness, I took a clinical job.
485
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:57,240
I didn't even have an administrative assistant, didn't have an MA I would work with.
486
00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:58,960
I didn't, I had no support.
487
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,600
So I wasn't even resourced to succeed at the job I took.
488
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,000
And that's a problem.
489
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,920
If somebody says, I want you to come be a full time clinician, you want to know that
490
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:12,360
you have the full time clinician support to be successful at that job.
491
00:25:12,360 --> 00:25:13,660
Otherwise you fail.
492
00:25:13,660 --> 00:25:18,200
So that's part of your negotiation is do I have what it takes to succeed?
493
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:22,080
For example, let's say they take you on in a research role and they say we're going to
494
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,200
give you 75% protected time for three years.
495
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,800
And in three years, we expect that you're going to be able to make the transition.
496
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:33,000
Now I have to tell you that PhD researchers who've done seven to 10 years of research
497
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:38,440
as part of their PhD training and their postdoc, they still need career development awards
498
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,960
to be able to like transition to independence.
499
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:45,000
So for any MD three years is actually not enough because you have much, much less clinical
500
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,640
training relative to a PhD researcher.
501
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:53,240
Now most people are going to give you only three years, but what I'm saying is that you
502
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:59,080
want to make sure that you are optimally resourced at the end of those three years to run, right?
503
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:03,120
You don't want to be at the end of three years saying, well, what, what just happened?
504
00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:05,020
Three years will go by very quickly.
505
00:26:05,020 --> 00:26:10,940
What you want to do is say, if you're hiring me to succeed in research, where are the resources
506
00:26:10,940 --> 00:26:12,800
to help me succeed?
507
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,960
Where's my clinical research coordinator who's paying for that?
508
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,080
Where's the biostatistician I'm going to work with?
509
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:19,440
Who's paying for that?
510
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,520
Where's the grant writing sessions that I'm going to have access to?
511
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:23,520
Who's paying for that?
512
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:28,280
You got to ask those questions because at the end of the day, if you don't succeed,
513
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,240
you know, they'll say, oh, what a waste of time.
514
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,960
But if they didn't resource you to succeed, then you weren't set up to succeed in the
515
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:35,320
first place.
516
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:40,120
But at the end of the day, it's up to you to be clear about what resources you need
517
00:26:40,120 --> 00:26:41,120
to succeed.
518
00:26:41,120 --> 00:26:43,440
And that's what you should negotiate.
519
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,280
So before ever you even start looking for the job, write a list of all the things you
520
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:51,920
need to succeed clinically and a list of all the things you need to do to succeed as a
521
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:53,260
scholar.
522
00:26:53,260 --> 00:26:54,360
Write them down.
523
00:26:54,360 --> 00:26:59,920
And when they say, oh, I'm so sorry, we know the meeting is $350,000, but we can only offer
524
00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:00,920
you $325,000.
525
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:06,960
And you can say, okay, can I get $25,000 worth of a research assistant?
526
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:07,960
You know?
527
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:13,600
It's not salary because they don't want to commit to this, you know, extra of $25,000
528
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:14,600
every year.
529
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:19,600
But it can give you something that helps to resource you so you can succeed.
530
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:20,600
Okay.
531
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:21,600
So that's it.
532
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:22,600
Those are the five points.
533
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:27,960
And if I remember correctly, number one was to start with what you want.
534
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:32,480
Number two is to be clear about community, the location that you're going to be.
535
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,000
Number three is then the job.
536
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,160
Like does it even have a semblance of the kind of job that you want?
537
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:38,400
Number four is salary.
538
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:43,040
And number five is what's the package that's going to support you in the job that you're
539
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:44,040
taking?
540
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:45,040
Okay.
541
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:49,120
I think I would just say that the big, the summary of it all at the end of the day is
542
00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:52,920
that you are, you're coming into the job to succeed.
543
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:57,720
If you do not succeed, you disappoint the people who hired you, you disappoint yourself.
544
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:03,200
So be very clear about what success looks like and be very clear about what you need
545
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:04,620
to succeed.
546
00:28:04,620 --> 00:28:05,620
That's what you negotiate.
547
00:28:05,620 --> 00:28:07,800
You negotiate what is needed to succeed.
548
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:09,280
It's not just salary.
549
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:13,320
It's the whole benefits package around how you succeed.
550
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,520
Salary is important because if they don't give you a certain salary, you can negotiate
551
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,920
other things, but you do need to know what you're negotiating and don't do it alone.
552
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:22,480
Make sure you do it as a team.
553
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:23,480
All right.
554
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:24,480
Excellent.
555
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,160
I'm going to stop recording and then I would love to hear your thoughts.
556
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,080
Well, there you have it.
557
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,280
I hope that was helpful to you.
558
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:36,360
I look forward to talking with you again next time on the Clinician Researcher Podcast.
559
00:28:36,360 --> 00:28:45,440
Thank you for listening.
560
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:50,800
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast, where academic
561
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:56,040
clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they
562
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:57,600
have a mentor.
563
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:03,560
If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.
564
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:05,440
Someone else needs to hear it.
565
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:09,480
So take a minute right now and share it.
566
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:14,960
As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation
567
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:27,840
of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,860
Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills
2
00:00:05,860 --> 00:00:11,260
to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.
3
00:00:11,260 --> 00:00:17,340
As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.
4
00:00:17,340 --> 00:00:22,380
When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find
5
00:00:22,380 --> 00:00:27,780
that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research
6
00:00:27,780 --> 00:00:29,200
program.
7
00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:35,480
Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.
8
00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:40,580
However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.
9
00:00:40,580 --> 00:00:46,200
For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians
10
00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,800
the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.
11
00:00:51,800 --> 00:01:01,800
Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.
12
00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:05,600
Well hello everyone, welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast.
13
00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:10,040
I'm your host Toyosi Onwuemene, and I am super excited to be talking with you today.
14
00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:11,960
Thank you so much for tuning in.
15
00:01:11,960 --> 00:01:17,680
Today I am bringing you an episode from a recent coaching conversation that I had with
16
00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:24,880
my clients, excited to share this one with you, and enjoy listening.
17
00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,600
Welcome and thank you for being here today, and for everyone who's catching the replay.
18
00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:29,600
Hello.
19
00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:32,400
So today I'm talking about looking for academic jobs.
20
00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:36,040
I'm talking about looking for academic jobs and maybe...
21
00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:37,600
I'm back.
22
00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:39,440
Yes, welcome back.
23
00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:43,800
All right, so I'm talking about looking for academic jobs, and maybe it's not so much
24
00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,180
looking for academic jobs as looking for jobs overall.
25
00:01:47,180 --> 00:01:52,320
Many of us will kind of want to look for just academic jobs, but I do want to talk about
26
00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:56,960
the breadth and the depth of what is available as far as the jobs want.
27
00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:57,960
Alison, welcome.
28
00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,000
I'm talking about looking for jobs.
29
00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:01,000
Okay.
30
00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:06,600
So I will say that when I started looking for jobs, I had my big decision.
31
00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:10,800
I definitely want to stay in academics, and to be honest, the academic decision was made
32
00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:13,120
for me the moment I started medical school.
33
00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:17,440
I just knew that the medical school environment was the environment I wanted to stay in, and
34
00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:21,000
so I knew I was going to do very much an academic job.
35
00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:26,560
But I think the next big decision, other than academics, was that I wanted...
36
00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:31,800
We were pretty particular about location, because at the time we had one child who was
37
00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:38,840
maybe one and a half years old, and we realized that we just wanted to be supported as much
38
00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:39,840
as we could.
39
00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:44,120
And so we were either going to stay where we were at the time in Chicago, where we already
40
00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:48,940
had a community, or we were going to move to North Carolina, which is where we had family,
41
00:02:48,940 --> 00:02:51,120
and we had kind of like a ready-made community.
42
00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:55,700
So we were pretty big on where we were going to stay or we were going to move to.
43
00:02:55,700 --> 00:03:00,040
And then I wanted to do research, and I knew that I was staying in academics so I could
44
00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:01,040
do research.
45
00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:02,040
That was like number three, actually.
46
00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:06,020
It probably was more number one, because it was my driving force.
47
00:03:06,020 --> 00:03:09,880
I assumed that academia meant a research job.
48
00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:11,540
That's what I assumed.
49
00:03:11,540 --> 00:03:16,460
And so I was surprised when I started looking for jobs, and what people were offering me
50
00:03:16,460 --> 00:03:21,400
was pretty much a full-time clinical, wow, you've got a lot of patients, and you're pretty
51
00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:23,760
much just going to see patients all the time, jobs.
52
00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:29,600
And I was so surprised, because most of my mentors who at the time, they're in their
53
00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:35,440
70s, one of them in his 80s, was very much like, you have to make sure you accept a 75%
54
00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:36,960
protected time job.
55
00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:41,100
All of that, and that's what I was looking for, but nobody was offering it to me, which
56
00:03:41,100 --> 00:03:42,100
is interesting.
57
00:03:42,100 --> 00:03:48,080
Anyway, so I ultimately selected a job that didn't necessarily give me the protected time
58
00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:51,540
I wanted, but had the promise of protected time.
59
00:03:51,540 --> 00:03:56,200
And I didn't realize that was a fallacy when I first started, the whole idea that you're
60
00:03:56,200 --> 00:04:01,720
going to come from clinical training, and you're going to be able to accept a research
61
00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:02,720
job in academia.
62
00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,240
And I'll talk about that in just a little bit.
63
00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,680
But so I ended up actually accepting the job I didn't want.
64
00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:12,840
And I think at the time, I thought when they were offering me 20% protected time, and that
65
00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:18,920
was truly protected time, 20% time in an 80% clinical role is really just administrative
66
00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:22,400
time, because everybody needs administrative time, and administrative time to catch up
67
00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:25,720
on notes, make phone calls, all of that, that's not protected time.
68
00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:27,360
I didn't recognize that.
69
00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:29,640
I took the job I didn't want.
70
00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:34,200
Anyway, so I was seeing patients five days a week, and then I got pregnant with my second
71
00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:35,440
child.
72
00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:36,440
And it was just rough.
73
00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:40,040
It was so rough, because I'm the kind of person who really loves to sit in corners and think,
74
00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:45,120
I don't mind seeing people talking to them as long as I can go back to a place to rest
75
00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:46,480
and recover.
76
00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:50,480
And I was doing a job where I was doing aphoresis specifically, which I think that our job in
77
00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:55,400
aphoresis is to say no as much as possible, unless the other person can figure out a way
78
00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:56,820
to convince you to say yes.
79
00:04:56,820 --> 00:05:00,640
So it's very, it was just, it was kind of job that at the end of the day, I always wanted
80
00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:01,640
to recover from.
81
00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:03,740
And there really wasn't a space for recovering.
82
00:05:03,740 --> 00:05:05,600
I was a miserable person.
83
00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:10,320
And then when it came to negotiating my first job and negotiating salary, I had no frame
84
00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:12,920
of reference for what my salary should be.
85
00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:18,160
I accepted whatever it is that they gave me as the anchor.
86
00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,920
And I mean, I negotiated up because people always said women don't negotiate.
87
00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:26,760
I did negotiate, but I think I wasn't prepared for the fact that it was such a low ball offer.
88
00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:28,800
My negotiation was pretty silly.
89
00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:30,160
Anyway, I know better now.
90
00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:35,260
So here I am to share some thoughts with you about what you should be thinking about as
91
00:05:35,260 --> 00:05:36,760
you're looking for jobs.
92
00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:37,760
Okay.
93
00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:43,020
I do think the most important thing about looking for jobs is always start with what
94
00:05:43,020 --> 00:05:44,200
you want.
95
00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:45,580
Start with what you want.
96
00:05:45,580 --> 00:05:49,760
Many times I hear people looking for jobs and they'll say, oh, we'll just see what's
97
00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:50,760
available.
98
00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:52,360
We'll just see what's available.
99
00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:56,980
And I want to say at the end of the day, the truth is you are not necessarily, I mean,
100
00:05:56,980 --> 00:05:58,600
you're not the one offering yourself a job.
101
00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:04,120
So yes, you are going to shape what's available to yourself, but you can't start with what's
102
00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:05,120
available.
103
00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:08,840
You have to start with what you want so that you can understand the gap between what you
104
00:06:08,840 --> 00:06:10,560
want and what you're being offered.
105
00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:15,300
And that's important because to be honest, most of us, for example, the job I have today
106
00:06:15,300 --> 00:06:18,680
looks nothing like the job I started with.
107
00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:23,040
And I'm at the same institution, but knowing what you want allows you to continue to shape
108
00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:26,160
and shape and shape until you're like, yep, this is the job I want.
109
00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:27,160
Right.
110
00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:31,280
And just as you change, your needs and your wants will change as well.
111
00:06:31,280 --> 00:06:36,280
But the most important place, number one, like without question, is start with what
112
00:06:36,280 --> 00:06:37,840
you want.
113
00:06:37,840 --> 00:06:40,440
Don't say, oh, we'll just see what's available.
114
00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:42,120
Start with what you want.
115
00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:46,880
And the reason it's important to start with what you want is because if you are not happy
116
00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:50,560
in your job, I mean, it's just, it's a problem.
117
00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:52,400
You spend a lot of time working.
118
00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:54,260
You spend a lot of time with your colleagues.
119
00:06:54,260 --> 00:06:57,520
And if you don't have a job that you want, it'll be miserable.
120
00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:01,600
And there is no, in medicine, I think we've been in our training where we spend a lot
121
00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:07,080
of time being miserable and there's no need to continue to perpetuate the misery.
122
00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:08,760
And at some point you do need to stop.
123
00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:12,160
And I think training is a good time to stop being miserable, to say, you know what, I'm
124
00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:16,360
not just here for the glory of this institution and its beautiful name.
125
00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:18,240
I'm here because of what I want to build.
126
00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:22,820
And so I think the harder thing for us to do is to be very clear on what you want.
127
00:07:22,820 --> 00:07:26,240
Because to be honest, in our training, we've never thought about what we want.
128
00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:29,920
We're always, for the most part, we're big on like, well, okay, well, I need internal
129
00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:30,920
medicine training.
130
00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:32,720
This is one of the institutions that does it really well.
131
00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:34,280
Okay, let's go here.
132
00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:38,760
And a lot of what we wanted is driven by what the institution has available.
133
00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:43,240
And we have the sense that the institution makes us because it's, you know, the institution
134
00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:44,240
has a name.
135
00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:47,880
At the end of the day, you are the one who makes the institution the institution and
136
00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,880
you're the one bringing your skills and expertise to the institution.
137
00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:52,160
The institution doesn't make you.
138
00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:53,160
You make the institution.
139
00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:55,760
And so you are the gift to the institution.
140
00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:57,680
It's important to know that.
141
00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,040
So what does it take to know what you want?
142
00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:04,160
It takes thinking about it and talking to people and thinking about what is important
143
00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:05,160
to me.
144
00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:08,840
What are the things that I like about my job or I like about medicine?
145
00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:10,620
What are the things I hate?
146
00:08:10,620 --> 00:08:15,920
And how can I minimize the things I hate so I can maximize the things I like?
147
00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:18,480
I think all along I said I wanted to do research.
148
00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:24,560
And what I realize now is that I'm not sure it was necessarily research that was my goal.
149
00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:31,160
As much as I really like the idea of academia for being able to really think clearly and
150
00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:33,920
think long and deeply about things.
151
00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:37,120
I love to think and I love to teach.
152
00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:38,840
Research has those opportunities.
153
00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:40,040
And so research makes sense to me.
154
00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:44,200
And even now research makes sense to me in a way that it didn't when I first started.
155
00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,080
But it's important to know who you are.
156
00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:47,080
I'm the kind of person.
157
00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:48,720
I'm an introvert too.
158
00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:50,740
I love to be around people.
159
00:08:50,740 --> 00:08:53,200
I think people think I'm mostly extroverted.
160
00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:54,800
But I need times to recover.
161
00:08:54,800 --> 00:09:00,040
And the whole idea of just being on the run every day without fail is just very hard for
162
00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:01,040
me.
163
00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:02,960
There needs to be space for me to recover.
164
00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:04,760
So knowing yourself is important.
165
00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,600
But number one is to start with what you want.
166
00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:11,960
And that really starts with understanding who you are and how you want to live your
167
00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:12,960
life.
168
00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:15,440
It's not even so much how you want to practice, what patients you want to see.
169
00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:17,040
It's just who do you want to be?
170
00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:19,360
How do you want to feel at the end of the day?
171
00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:22,040
Because all the rest of the stuff is negotiable.
172
00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:24,900
You can decide I want to see only patients with lymphoma.
173
00:09:24,900 --> 00:09:27,480
You can decide I only want to do MDS.
174
00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:31,140
And ultimately you can shape your clinic experience.
175
00:09:31,140 --> 00:09:32,960
You can shape your faculty experience.
176
00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:36,880
And if you're in an academic medical center, there's a whole range of jobs you can do.
177
00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:40,180
And your job is going to be changing over time.
178
00:09:40,180 --> 00:09:42,100
So first of all, start with what you want.
179
00:09:42,100 --> 00:09:43,100
That's number one.
180
00:09:43,100 --> 00:09:45,640
Number two, think about location.
181
00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:49,440
Okay, so for many of us in our medical training, we just went everywhere.
182
00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:51,700
Wherever it was like, oh, Duke is the best.
183
00:09:51,700 --> 00:09:52,700
I'm going there.
184
00:09:52,700 --> 00:09:54,360
That's where you went.
185
00:09:54,360 --> 00:10:00,680
I do think that the more seasoned you get, I think it becomes important that you are
186
00:10:00,680 --> 00:10:04,920
surrounded by communities that support you.
187
00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:09,720
It's kind of like if you played basketball at the high school level and it was hard at
188
00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,960
high school, then you go to the big leagues.
189
00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:17,440
You know, and that's when you start your faculty positions, like the big leagues where people
190
00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:19,720
don't, they're not there to cheer you on.
191
00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:23,600
Some people are there to like destroy you for whatever reason, right?
192
00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:27,680
I mean, there are people who just for whatever reason, they don't want you to succeed.
193
00:10:27,680 --> 00:10:28,680
Think of it as a ball game.
194
00:10:28,680 --> 00:10:33,240
There's the side that's cheering for your team and the side that's not cheering.
195
00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:35,240
You're not playing on home territory.
196
00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:39,200
And people have different reasons or different ideas about who they think should be successful.
197
00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:41,720
Some people are going to be downright evil to you.
198
00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:42,760
They're just going to be.
199
00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:44,680
And it's not even a thing to be sad about.
200
00:10:44,680 --> 00:10:46,360
It's just to be like, oh, okay.
201
00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,000
I've identified you as one of those people who's going to be evil to me.
202
00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:50,880
Thank you so much for showing yourself.
203
00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:56,240
And so to be able to play at the level, you really need to be surrounded by a community
204
00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:59,500
of supporters who believes in you no matter what.
205
00:10:59,500 --> 00:11:02,000
You can build that for yourself wherever you go.
206
00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:06,520
Absolutely can't, but you do need to be intentional about it.
207
00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:10,120
And so you need to think about location.
208
00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,360
Where are there going to be people who love me, who support me, who encourage me, where
209
00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:15,440
I can go and meet my people?
210
00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:18,280
Because when you're at work, you're on.
211
00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:24,640
I mean, some people are in environments where it's totally nurturing, totally supportive.
212
00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:26,320
I want to say most people are not.
213
00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:30,520
If you come into any environment and you have any idea that's different from the status
214
00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:34,960
quo, either you want to do research that nobody else is doing, or you feel like things in
215
00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:39,960
medicine are not equitable and need to change, anything at all you think about that deviates
216
00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:43,120
from the status quo, you will find that you will make enemies very quickly.
217
00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:47,280
Because there are people whose lives depend on nothing changing, everything staying the
218
00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:48,280
same.
219
00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:51,000
So everywhere you go, people will say, well, you want change.
220
00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:52,760
We want everything to be different.
221
00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:56,760
And in reality, people don't want change because change means they have to change.
222
00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:57,820
Nobody wants change.
223
00:11:57,820 --> 00:12:00,520
They lie to you if they say they don't, they want change.
224
00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:04,640
Most people don't because it really takes a lot of work in terms of personal development
225
00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:06,660
to be someone who embraces change.
226
00:12:06,660 --> 00:12:11,600
And so to be honest, if you want anything at all in medicine to be different, and I
227
00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:15,360
believe that most of us do, you will find that there will be opposition.
228
00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:17,920
And so it's okay to have opposition.
229
00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:23,700
Many of us already know what that feels like, but you can survive better, you can do better
230
00:12:23,700 --> 00:12:25,680
knowing that you have a community.
231
00:12:25,680 --> 00:12:28,680
Now do you have to have the community in that geographic location?
232
00:12:28,680 --> 00:12:29,680
Not necessarily.
233
00:12:29,680 --> 00:12:34,640
Now, especially post COVID, many of us have virtual communities and we can build those
234
00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:36,880
virtual communities if we don't have them.
235
00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:40,280
But I want to say that one of the biggest threats to mental and emotional health is
236
00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:41,760
isolation.
237
00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:45,320
I want to say that again, one of the biggest threats to mental and emotional health is
238
00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:47,000
isolation.
239
00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:51,160
And so what you want to make sure is that you're not going to be isolated.
240
00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:55,160
Whatever you need to do, I want you to think about that as you look for jobs.
241
00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:59,400
And it's so important because honestly, I mean, there are going to be times where people
242
00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,600
are going to bait you because they want you to get mad.
243
00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:03,600
They want you to self-destruct.
244
00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:08,160
They're going to trip you up intentionally so that you can fall.
245
00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:09,160
And it's different.
246
00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:14,320
It's different from the supportive communities you came from in training and residency and
247
00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:15,980
med school.
248
00:13:15,980 --> 00:13:19,660
And you want to know that you can find people who will encourage you and support you as
249
00:13:19,660 --> 00:13:21,080
you navigate that.
250
00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:25,380
You are more than capable, absolutely more than capable, but you want to be supported
251
00:13:25,380 --> 00:13:26,460
as you navigate that.
252
00:13:26,460 --> 00:13:30,640
So number two, number two is really think about location and not so much geographic
253
00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:35,200
location though I do mean that too, but really communities that are going to nurture you
254
00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:37,320
so that you can continue to thrive.
255
00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:38,320
All right.
256
00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:40,240
Number three is the job.
257
00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:42,960
Job is not number one or two, but number three is the job.
258
00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:43,960
Here's the truth.
259
00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:49,920
Most of the jobs that you first of all find are not going to be exactly what you want.
260
00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:54,280
What you're going to do is shape them over time to be the kind of job you want.
261
00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:58,400
So what you're really looking for is you're looking for the seed of goodness, right, in
262
00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:00,360
the job that you're going for.
263
00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,340
You're not necessarily looking for the perfect job.
264
00:14:02,340 --> 00:14:06,780
You may not find the perfect job though rarely you could, but what you're looking for is
265
00:14:06,780 --> 00:14:09,960
is there opportunity to change, shift, adapt?
266
00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:13,000
Is there opportunity to move things a little bit?
267
00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:15,240
And then, and you'll have a sense of that.
268
00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,280
Who's your division chief or your division director?
269
00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,640
How open are they?
270
00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:26,640
You'll get a sense of just the community, the vibes of the place that you're in as you
271
00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:28,780
share the ideas that you have.
272
00:14:28,780 --> 00:14:34,200
So number three really is the job, but also seeing to what extent is that job movable
273
00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:36,560
rather than being set in stone?
274
00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:37,640
That's number three.
275
00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:43,120
As part of number three, what you want to do is you want to go find their metrics for
276
00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:44,120
promotion.
277
00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:49,280
Now, I think institutions are becoming more clear about what promotion metrics are, but
278
00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:53,720
for the most part you have to go find it and say, okay, here are the metrics for promotion.
279
00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:55,900
Now some people are like, I don't even care about promotion.
280
00:14:55,900 --> 00:15:00,000
I just want to say that if you're in an academic medical center, you do need to care about
281
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:01,000
promotion.
282
00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:04,540
You may decide I don't want to be promoted, but you do need to know exactly what it takes
283
00:15:04,540 --> 00:15:05,540
to be promoted.
284
00:15:05,540 --> 00:15:10,040
Whether you choose to do it or not, it's fine, but you do need to know so that you can actively
285
00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:14,320
say don't even want to do that even though I know it's necessary for promotion.
286
00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:18,320
You want to know what I think the challenge is that people say I don't care and they don't
287
00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:19,320
know.
288
00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:21,360
And then when they finally are like, wait a minute, I do care.
289
00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:24,740
Then it's like, oh, now I'm just starting to figure it out.
290
00:15:24,740 --> 00:15:28,700
The reason you want to know upfront before you even accept the job offer is you want
291
00:15:28,700 --> 00:15:30,760
to know what they value.
292
00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:35,360
Here's the challenge that happens for a lot of physicians.
293
00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:40,600
Many times people, even in academia, are growing, growing more towards just full-time clinical
294
00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:42,980
work for academic physicians.
295
00:15:42,980 --> 00:15:46,460
So it's like you don't get to pay a private practice, but you're working like a private
296
00:15:46,460 --> 00:15:47,720
practice doc.
297
00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:49,520
It's becoming increasingly common.
298
00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:55,240
However, as much as they put you to work in clinical full-time, then they also are grading
299
00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:57,140
you on the metrics of academia.
300
00:15:57,140 --> 00:16:02,120
So it's like, oh, your publication record, your reputation, which is like you have no
301
00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,120
reputation unless you're publishing or giving talks.
302
00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:09,240
They grade you on research and you may not necessarily be the one leading research, but
303
00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:11,560
are you part of collaborative research teams?
304
00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:12,560
Do you do team science?
305
00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:13,840
That kind of thing.
306
00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:20,820
So if they are grading you based on academic work, but you have no space in your schedule
307
00:16:20,820 --> 00:16:25,680
for said academic work, they are setting you up to be not promotable.
308
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:26,680
That's really important.
309
00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,840
Now, does that mean, oh, there you go.
310
00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:31,080
You only give me clinical work.
311
00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:32,680
I have no space to be promotable.
312
00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:33,680
I'm not coming to this job.
313
00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:34,680
It doesn't mean that.
314
00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:39,040
But it does mean you get to say, because the ball is in your court when you're negotiating
315
00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:43,800
your job, you'll get to say, hey, here I see you put me in clinic for days a week.
316
00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:44,800
Okay.
317
00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:47,040
I can manage that, I think.
318
00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:51,000
But I'm also seeing here that you need me to have published 10 manuscripts to be able
319
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,960
to move from assistant to associate.
320
00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,040
Where is the time and effort for this piece?
321
00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,120
That's just an important question to ask.
322
00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,200
So people can really start to say, can they be honest with you?
323
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:03,640
Then you say, well, you know what?
324
00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:05,360
Actually, we don't want clinicians to be promoted.
325
00:17:05,360 --> 00:17:08,960
Then you know, you're going to be like, okay, maybe this is not the space for me.
326
00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:11,160
Or you can say, yeah, yeah, yeah, the money is good.
327
00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:12,320
I don't care about that.
328
00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:13,720
But you get to choose.
329
00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:18,720
And so it's important to get the metrics for promotion, see what they value.
330
00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,400
And every institution has different tracks for promotion now, I think.
331
00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:24,320
There's tenure track, there's non-tenure track.
332
00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:28,680
But no matter the track, reputation still matters.
333
00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:30,960
Scholarly productivity still matters.
334
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:35,440
And you want to make sure that if those things are valued, because they put them in the promotion
335
00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:42,360
and tenure materials, that you also have the opportunity within your job description to
336
00:17:42,360 --> 00:17:43,360
do them.
337
00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:46,080
And if you don't ask the question, why?
338
00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:47,080
Okay.
339
00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:51,040
So that's really about the job and the environment for the job.
340
00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:52,440
That's number three.
341
00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:55,360
Number four, okay, you got to think about money.
342
00:17:55,360 --> 00:17:58,280
You absolutely need to think about your salary.
343
00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,080
One of the things that physicians don't do well is think about money.
344
00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:04,000
Because to be honest, in our training, I mean, medical school, you're just looking for how
345
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,120
do I pay my medical school debt, right?
346
00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:09,420
Many people take out loans, not everybody.
347
00:18:09,420 --> 00:18:10,420
Most of us take out loans.
348
00:18:10,420 --> 00:18:12,520
So we just always think about giving, giving, giving, right?
349
00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:13,720
We're applying for medical schools.
350
00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:15,480
In the past, we fly all over the country.
351
00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,800
We're spending our own money trying to get into medical school.
352
00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:19,800
You get to residency.
353
00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:21,840
Well, you're not negotiating salary.
354
00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:23,400
It's just PGY4 is PGY4.
355
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,000
Sorry, here's what you get.
356
00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:26,560
Here's what you get.
357
00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:27,960
You get to fellowship, it's the same thing.
358
00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:28,960
You're not negotiating anything.
359
00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:33,480
You get to your faculty job, it's the first time you're expected.
360
00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,200
There is an expectation for negotiation.
361
00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:37,680
Expectation.
362
00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,480
And so you've got to be prepared to negotiate.
363
00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:43,120
I will say don't negotiate alone.
364
00:18:43,120 --> 00:18:44,120
I did that.
365
00:18:44,120 --> 00:18:47,760
I was totally like, okay, well, I'm supposed to negotiate, but I had no idea what I was
366
00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:48,760
supposed to negotiate.
367
00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:52,600
I negotiated by myself and I ended up with a very, very, very bad deal.
368
00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:57,360
It took them years to, it took me years to unravel the bad deal, you know?
369
00:18:57,360 --> 00:18:59,280
And I'm still figuring it out.
370
00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:01,440
But it's really important to negotiate.
371
00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:05,920
No matter how great the offer, you're like, oh my gosh, this money is so stupid.
372
00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,080
Oh my gosh, I love it.
373
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:10,680
And even accept at face value.
374
00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:17,520
At a minimum, what you need to do is find the AAMC salary compensation report.
375
00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:19,440
They print it annually.
376
00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:25,560
As long as your academic medical center contributes to that data, you get the report for $60.
377
00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:27,600
Don't say I don't have $60.
378
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:28,680
Is very, very important.
379
00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:32,700
And if you don't have $60 or you don't have access to it, because if you are not part
380
00:19:32,700 --> 00:19:37,560
of an institution that contributes to this data, then you pay $1,500 for the report.
381
00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:38,560
I have the report.
382
00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:40,480
At a minimum, just ask me.
383
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:44,080
We will look it up together and I'll say, this is a salary based on the part of the
384
00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:46,440
country you're in, blah, blah, blah.
385
00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:50,760
There's 10th percentile, 25th percentile, 50th percentile.
386
00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:54,800
At a minimum, aim for the median as like, this is what I want.
387
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,800
And you know what the thing about negotiation is?
388
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:03,480
As long as you have a clear justification for what you're negotiating, you have every
389
00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:05,120
right to ask for it.
390
00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:11,920
All you have to say is that the median salary at the AAMC benchmark across institutions
391
00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:16,760
that are private in the Southeast United States is $353,000.
392
00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:18,200
You don't have to ask any questions.
393
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:20,160
And they can argue that.
394
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:24,120
They can come and say, well, we don't really do the median, blah, blah, blah.
395
00:20:24,120 --> 00:20:28,400
Then you can say, well, if you don't do the median, how will you make up for this for
396
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:29,400
me?
397
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:30,680
What are the other benefits?
398
00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:34,640
So it's hard to do because we don't do that.
399
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:37,200
You had no practice for 10 years.
400
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:42,120
You've been just doing stuff and accepting at face value what people give you.
401
00:20:42,120 --> 00:20:46,540
But when you go for your first faculty position, don't be desperate.
402
00:20:46,540 --> 00:20:50,720
Take all the time you need, but you need to negotiate.
403
00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:55,720
Now one of the things that's challenging is that we tend to be desperate when we come
404
00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,600
to our faculty jobs because we're just like, I just need to pay off my student loan debt.
405
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,240
I just, I need to start this job yesterday.
406
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,320
Like I finished fellowship July, June 30th.
407
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,600
I need a job July 1st because I can't afford life without the job.
408
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:10,000
Don't be desperate.
409
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,880
You are full fledged attending once you finish residency.
410
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,360
Even if you didn't finish residency, you can still work.
411
00:21:16,360 --> 00:21:22,060
Go find a locum's job and do it until you feel like you have the position that you really
412
00:21:22,060 --> 00:21:27,520
want or the salary that makes sense for you or the benefits that make sense for you.
413
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,400
Don't accept a job out of desperation.
414
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,280
Whatever they give you, review it with a team.
415
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:38,840
Now let me tell you that when academic institutions are negotiating with you, they're negotiating
416
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:40,040
as a team.
417
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,920
No division chief makes a decision by himself.
418
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:48,120
He takes whatever it is you say you want, takes it to like a team and then they say,
419
00:21:48,120 --> 00:21:49,920
oh no, we don't want to give her this much.
420
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:50,920
No, no, no.
421
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:51,920
This is what we want to do.
422
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:52,920
This is what we want to do.
423
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:53,920
And then they come back to you.
424
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:59,040
So if this big bad institution has been around for hundreds of years is negotiating as a
425
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,360
team, please don't do it by yourself.
426
00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:05,560
At a minimum, find someone who's senior who you can just talk with and be like, hey, what's
427
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:06,560
your salary?
428
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:07,560
How did you negotiate this?
429
00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:09,760
How can I negotiate it?
430
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,540
And do the negotiation, but don't do it by yourself.
431
00:22:12,540 --> 00:22:14,080
They're not doing it alone.
432
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:15,540
You don't do it alone.
433
00:22:15,540 --> 00:22:17,720
You have someone look at the contract with you.
434
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:19,240
You have someone help you.
435
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:24,240
And one of the things that I worked with a mentor when I did my second negotiation, I
436
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:29,640
didn't do the first one with anybody, but I would get it and she would say, great, is
437
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:30,640
this what you want?
438
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:31,640
What's the median salary?
439
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:32,640
I was like, I don't know.
440
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:33,880
Go find out the median salary.
441
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,360
What kind of support is expected for someone who's studying research?
442
00:22:36,360 --> 00:22:37,400
Go find that out.
443
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,440
What is common as far as research package?
444
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:41,780
Go find that out and then write a letter.
445
00:22:41,780 --> 00:22:46,540
So for each phase of the negotiation, that was she wouldn't allow me to do anything verbal.
446
00:22:46,540 --> 00:22:48,840
I would always respond with a formal signed letter.
447
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,320
I would say, thank you so much for the offer that I see, blah, blah, blah.
448
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,040
Here's where I want to, you know.
449
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:57,680
And then, you know, they can talk and you think you're talking to friends, but it's
450
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:01,720
a formal contract negotiation and that is exactly how you should treat it.
451
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:03,280
Again, you're not used to doing that.
452
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:04,680
So don't try to do it by yourself.
453
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:10,400
I really, really, if you do, if you learn nothing at all, I, every job search should
454
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:15,040
always be done with someone supporting you, someone in your court, preferably a team,
455
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,560
but at least one more person other than you.
456
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:18,760
So that's the salary.
457
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:23,140
Number four, the reason you really want to negotiate the most, the highest salary you
458
00:23:23,140 --> 00:23:28,280
can get for the work you do is because to be honest, you're trading life years for money.
459
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,000
You are, you know, you spend a lot of time working.
460
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:32,000
You absolutely do.
461
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,960
What you want to do is you want to make sure you command a salary so that you don't have
462
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:40,280
to go find, you know, have to find the moonlighting job to make up your salary.
463
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:41,400
And a lot of people do that.
464
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,920
And to be honest, gosh, that's more time.
465
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:44,920
Kills you.
466
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:49,200
And, you know, earn the highest you can and then decide I want to go part time and earn
467
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:50,880
a third of it, whatever.
468
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:56,040
But just make sure that you get maximum value for the time you invest.
469
00:23:56,040 --> 00:24:00,360
And especially if you're underrepresented, if you're a woman, people will do their best
470
00:24:00,360 --> 00:24:04,560
to give you less than is standard.
471
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:09,360
That's why you do need to work with somebody to make sure that you get the maximum value
472
00:24:09,360 --> 00:24:11,200
for the money that you have.
473
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:16,120
I will tell you that as a physician, your capital is an opportunity to invest so that
474
00:24:16,120 --> 00:24:22,640
you can ultimately become financially independent, you know, and so the more you have to be able
475
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,000
to invest, the better it is for you.
476
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,560
And that's why it is really important.
477
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:29,480
Don't let anybody tell you it's not important.
478
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:30,480
Absolutely is important.
479
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:31,800
So please think about that.
480
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:35,600
The fifth thing and the last thing that I would say about what you should be thinking
481
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:40,720
about in the job is to be thinking about like what package would you negotiate for yourself?
482
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,260
Definitely, even if you're just coming out as a full time clinician, the question is
483
00:24:44,260 --> 00:24:48,160
what support do you have for the job you're being hired to do?
484
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:52,480
I, oh my goodness, I took a clinical job.
485
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:57,240
I didn't even have an administrative assistant, didn't have an MA I would work with.
486
00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:58,960
I didn't, I had no support.
487
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,600
So I wasn't even resourced to succeed at the job I took.
488
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,000
And that's a problem.
489
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,920
If somebody says, I want you to come be a full time clinician, you want to know that
490
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:12,360
you have the full time clinician support to be successful at that job.
491
00:25:12,360 --> 00:25:13,660
Otherwise you fail.
492
00:25:13,660 --> 00:25:18,200
So that's part of your negotiation is do I have what it takes to succeed?
493
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:22,080
For example, let's say they take you on in a research role and they say we're going to
494
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,200
give you 75% protected time for three years.
495
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,800
And in three years, we expect that you're going to be able to make the transition.
496
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:33,000
Now I have to tell you that PhD researchers who've done seven to 10 years of research
497
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:38,440
as part of their PhD training and their postdoc, they still need career development awards
498
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,960
to be able to like transition to independence.
499
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:45,000
So for any MD three years is actually not enough because you have much, much less clinical
500
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,640
training relative to a PhD researcher.
501
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:53,240
Now most people are going to give you only three years, but what I'm saying is that you
502
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:59,080
want to make sure that you are optimally resourced at the end of those three years to run, right?
503
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:03,120
You don't want to be at the end of three years saying, well, what, what just happened?
504
00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:05,020
Three years will go by very quickly.
505
00:26:05,020 --> 00:26:10,940
What you want to do is say, if you're hiring me to succeed in research, where are the resources
506
00:26:10,940 --> 00:26:12,800
to help me succeed?
507
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,960
Where's my clinical research coordinator who's paying for that?
508
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,080
Where's the biostatistician I'm going to work with?
509
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:19,440
Who's paying for that?
510
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,520
Where's the grant writing sessions that I'm going to have access to?
511
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:23,520
Who's paying for that?
512
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:28,280
You got to ask those questions because at the end of the day, if you don't succeed,
513
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,240
you know, they'll say, oh, what a waste of time.
514
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,960
But if they didn't resource you to succeed, then you weren't set up to succeed in the
515
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:35,320
first place.
516
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:40,120
But at the end of the day, it's up to you to be clear about what resources you need
517
00:26:40,120 --> 00:26:41,120
to succeed.
518
00:26:41,120 --> 00:26:43,440
And that's what you should negotiate.
519
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,280
So before ever you even start looking for the job, write a list of all the things you
520
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:51,920
need to succeed clinically and a list of all the things you need to do to succeed as a
521
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:53,260
scholar.
522
00:26:53,260 --> 00:26:54,360
Write them down.
523
00:26:54,360 --> 00:26:59,920
And when they say, oh, I'm so sorry, we know the meeting is $350,000, but we can only offer
524
00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:00,920
you $325,000.
525
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:06,960
And you can say, okay, can I get $25,000 worth of a research assistant?
526
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:07,960
You know?
527
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:13,600
It's not salary because they don't want to commit to this, you know, extra of $25,000
528
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:14,600
every year.
529
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:19,600
But it can give you something that helps to resource you so you can succeed.
530
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:20,600
Okay.
531
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:21,600
So that's it.
532
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:22,600
Those are the five points.
533
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:27,960
And if I remember correctly, number one was to start with what you want.
534
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:32,480
Number two is to be clear about community, the location that you're going to be.
535
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,000
Number three is then the job.
536
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,160
Like does it even have a semblance of the kind of job that you want?
537
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:38,400
Number four is salary.
538
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:43,040
And number five is what's the package that's going to support you in the job that you're
539
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:44,040
taking?
540
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:45,040
Okay.
541
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:49,120
I think I would just say that the big, the summary of it all at the end of the day is
542
00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:52,920
that you are, you're coming into the job to succeed.
543
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:57,720
If you do not succeed, you disappoint the people who hired you, you disappoint yourself.
544
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:03,200
So be very clear about what success looks like and be very clear about what you need
545
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:04,620
to succeed.
546
00:28:04,620 --> 00:28:05,620
That's what you negotiate.
547
00:28:05,620 --> 00:28:07,800
You negotiate what is needed to succeed.
548
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:09,280
It's not just salary.
549
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:13,320
It's the whole benefits package around how you succeed.
550
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,520
Salary is important because if they don't give you a certain salary, you can negotiate
551
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,920
other things, but you do need to know what you're negotiating and don't do it alone.
552
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:22,480
Make sure you do it as a team.
553
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:23,480
All right.
554
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:24,480
Excellent.
555
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,160
I'm going to stop recording and then I would love to hear your thoughts.
556
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,080
Well, there you have it.
557
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,280
I hope that was helpful to you.
558
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:36,360
I look forward to talking with you again next time on the Clinician Researcher Podcast.
559
00:28:36,360 --> 00:28:45,440
Thank you for listening.
560
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:50,800
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast, where academic
561
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:56,040
clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they
562
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:57,600
have a mentor.
563
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:03,560
If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.
564
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:05,440
Someone else needs to hear it.
565
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:09,480
So take a minute right now and share it.
566
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:14,960
As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation
567
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:27,840
of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.
Sign up for our weekly newsletter
Listen On
New to Clinician Researcher?
Feb. 5, 2024
Keys to Your Success - The Importance of Focus
In this episode, we explore the pivotal role of focus. In the journey to becoming a clinician scientist, we discuss the complexities of balancing clinical responsibilities, research, and administrative duties. Key Points Disc...
Jan. 5, 2024
Welcome to 2024!
In this episode, the Clinician Researcher Podcast sets off Season 2 with a focus on supporting clinicians transitioning to researchers while emphasizing authenticity and individuality. Key Points Discussed: Transitioning to a...
Sept. 4, 2023
How to negotiate your salary
Salary negotiations in academic medicine can be challenging. It is especially challenging because no one teaches you how to negotiate well. In this episode, we break down the salary negotiation process. This process highlight...
Aug. 7, 2023
How to negotiate for protected time
In this episode, we explore the art of negotiating protected time. Negotiate time to advance your research and career by doing the following things: Get clarity on what protected time will do for you. Develop a strategic plan...
Aug. 3, 2023
Why do I need protected time?
Podcast Show Notes - Clinician Researcher, Episode 3: Why do I need protected time? Welcome to another enlightening episode of the "Clinician Researcher" podcast. In this episode, we delve into the concept of "Protected Time"...
Aug. 2, 2023
Can I succeed with or without a mentor?
Podcast Show Notes - Clinician Researcher, Episode 2: Can I Succeed with or without a Mentor? Did you know that mentorship plays a crucial role in shaping the success of clinicians and researchers? According to a systematic r...
Aug. 1, 2023
Why Clinicians Should Lead Research
Welcome to the inaugural episode of the "Clinician Researcher" podcast, where we empower clinicians to become successful research leaders. In this inaugural episode, we explore why clinicians should lead research programs. We...