How to be a good mentee

1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,860 Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills 2 00:00:05,860 --> 00:00:11,260 to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor. 3 00:00:11,260 --> 00:00:17,340 As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients. 4 00:00:17,340 --> 00:00:22,380 When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find 5 00:00:22,380 --> 00:00:27,780 that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research 6 00:00:27,780 --> 00:00:29,200 program. 7 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:35,480 Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit. 8 00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:40,580 However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs. 9 00:00:40,580 --> 00:00:46,200 For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians 10 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,800 the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor. 11 00:00:51,800 --> 00:01:01,120 Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene. 12 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:05,000 Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast. 13 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:09,620 I'm your host Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is an absolute pleasure to be talking with you today. 14 00:01:09,620 --> 00:01:10,760 Thank you for tuning in. 15 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:12,440 Thank you for listening. 16 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:17,880 I'm excited to bring you today's episode titled, How to Be a Good Mentor. 17 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:22,960 The title of the episode is, How to Be a Good Mentor. 18 00:01:22,960 --> 00:01:28,520 The title of this episode comes from a recent conference that I attended. 19 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:34,640 It's a workshop of like-minded individuals who want to advance diversity in clinical 20 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:38,480 trials, and we had a session on mentoring, which is awesome. 21 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:45,080 I'm really excited when conferences are dedicated to career development. 22 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:52,760 She stepped up to the podium and she asked a question, how do you become a good mentee? 23 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:57,880 And I remember when I heard that question, my heart sank and I had this weird pit in 24 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:07,200 my stomach because I thought, I'm like, no, please, are you asking that question? 25 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:12,320 And so I do want to share just to give you full disclosure that no matter what you're 26 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:18,400 thinking, this episode is not going to turn out exactly as you thought, because I have 27 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:22,960 some thoughts about that question that I'm going to break down. 28 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:27,800 But before I start it, if I start the episode, before I start telling you how to be a good 29 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:33,480 mentee, or at least my thoughts about it, I need to first share with you my history. 30 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:35,720 It's just going to be short. 31 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:38,240 It's not my life history, but it's going to be short. 32 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:40,300 I grew up as a goody two shoes. 33 00:02:40,300 --> 00:02:43,480 I don't know if you have ever met people like me. 34 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:49,800 I am the kid who would study the landscape, figure out what the adults wanted, and I would 35 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,760 do it to a T. I was the one everybody called a good girl. 36 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:58,560 I was just so good at it because, you know, adults were so easy to please. 37 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:02,760 They would want a certain thing and I would just give it to them. 38 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:09,600 And consistently, so in my culture, I'm Nigerian, the women, girls greet on their knees. 39 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:15,320 And you know, we're kind of like, we don't, I think now in the 21st century, people don't 40 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:17,760 really do that really much anymore. 41 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:24,840 But there's like a kind of like an ode that we, let me say, like you genuflect in a sense, 42 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:30,560 like you kind of like bob a little bit as like, oh, yes, this is how I greet. 43 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:32,360 This is how I say hello. 44 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:37,560 And so anyway, so now people culturally don't get on their two knees, for the most part. 45 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,880 But you know, there is kind of like a symbol of like, okay, I may not be getting on my 46 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:44,600 two knees, but I'm coming down a little bit just to say it's a sign of respect. 47 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,640 So you know, I'm Nigerian, but I'm originally Yoruba. 48 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,360 So it's very specific to the Yoruba culture. 49 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:56,720 Okay, so, but adults would get so tickled when I would go down on both knees, which 50 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,320 is like, oh my gosh, this girl is so respectful. 51 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:01,000 Oh my goodness. 52 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:07,200 And so the first time I tried it when I was a kid, and you know, the adult I did it for, 53 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:08,840 gosh, so much. 54 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:10,640 I was like, oh, is this it? 55 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:12,240 This is what makes them so happy. 56 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:17,480 So I was the kid who would get down on both knees to say good morning and they loved me. 57 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:20,600 I mean, I just, I was, oh my gosh, people loved me. 58 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:23,760 Anyway, I'm getting carried away by my goody two shoes-ness. 59 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:29,200 But anyway, I think I say all that to say that at the end of the day, the adults were 60 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:33,220 so tickled about me, but how did it move me forward? 61 00:04:33,220 --> 00:04:36,560 How did it move me forward in service to humanity? 62 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:40,360 I developed a great people pleasing strategy. 63 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,400 I would figure out what people wanted and I would do it. 64 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,800 And I have to tell you that that's what I carried into my faculty career. 65 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:51,680 I would figure out what the, you know, the senior people wanted and I would do it. 66 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:55,440 And so that was me studying how to please people. 67 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:56,560 And so I got very good at it. 68 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:01,360 So when I am asked the question, how to be a good mentee, I will tell you that culturally 69 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:03,980 and personally, I can do that. 70 00:05:03,980 --> 00:05:06,660 I'm very good at it. 71 00:05:06,660 --> 00:05:10,400 And now I'm going to talk to you about my ideas about how to be a good mentee. 72 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:13,800 So I, I'm not talking here about culture. 73 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,640 I want to focus on how to be a good mentee. 74 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:22,360 But what I want to tell you is that if you are somebody who's going to come and make 75 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:29,000 a difference and make an impact, you don't ask, how do I please you? 76 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:33,960 You ask, how do I advance in the thing for which I came to do? 77 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:34,960 Okay. 78 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,240 I'm going to say that again in a different way. 79 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:42,440 If you're going to be someone who's going to make an impact in the world, you're going 80 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,200 to transform the lives of patients. 81 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:48,760 You don't ask, what do I do to make everybody around me happy? 82 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:54,760 Even if they're senior mentors who are doing excellently, you ask, what do I need to advance 83 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,200 so that I can accomplish this? 84 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:02,600 Now if you're in the academy just to get along, if you're in the academy just to have a good 85 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:06,880 job, if you're in the academy just so you can check boxes, then please by all means 86 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:08,960 study how to be a good mentee. 87 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:15,560 This is not going to be the episode for you. 88 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:21,420 And I have to apologize if my title misled you into this, you know, false sense of security 89 00:06:21,420 --> 00:06:26,160 that I was actually going to tell you that I value, you know, that question of how to 90 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:27,520 be a good mentee. 91 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:31,280 So please accept my apologies and it's okay if you want to drop off right now. 92 00:06:31,280 --> 00:06:39,240 But for everybody else who's intrigued, you know, there are many times in life that we 93 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,280 just go through the motions. 94 00:06:42,280 --> 00:06:45,080 And I want to say that the academic career is not the right place for going through the 95 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:46,080 motions of life. 96 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:47,240 It's just not. 97 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:51,600 I want to say that it cost a minimum of 10 years, and that's not counting all the time 98 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,080 you put in trying to get into medical school. 99 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:58,920 It cost most of us a minimum of 10 years to go through medical school residency fellowship, 100 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:00,740 for those of you who went through fellowship. 101 00:07:00,740 --> 00:07:01,740 And then some more. 102 00:07:01,740 --> 00:07:06,840 I have one of my classmates who probably spent like four or five years in fellowship. 103 00:07:06,840 --> 00:07:12,960 And so there's been a lot of investment in this career to become a clinician and a clinician 104 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:13,960 scientist. 105 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:20,240 And if at the end of that journey, what you want to do is just make people around you 106 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:25,240 happy, I want to say that that's probably not the greatest of goals. 107 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:29,120 And I will also say it actually is the hardest goal. 108 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:30,880 You will never succeed. 109 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:31,880 Okay. 110 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:34,640 As a clinician, you have many, many people, many bosses, right? 111 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:40,000 You have the people in clinic who need your close charts, see as many patients as possible. 112 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:44,880 Their priorities for you are different from your mentors who want you to succeed in research, 113 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:49,600 who wants you to move their research program forward for some mentors who are very focused 114 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:53,320 on still kind of like advancing their careers really early on. 115 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:56,340 Their focus is on you doing the work. 116 00:07:56,340 --> 00:08:00,240 And then you have the education component, right? 117 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:06,560 Their focus, the CME or the GME group, their focus is on getting you to help train as many 118 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:07,560 trainees as possible. 119 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:11,840 And they would love you to just give lectures every day, day in and day out. 120 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:17,260 Well, just put those three things together, the research, the education and the clinical, 121 00:08:17,260 --> 00:08:20,080 and they're already in conflict with one another. 122 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:21,960 You cannot please people. 123 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:27,120 If you're going to be a good clinician, a good researcher and a good educator, you're 124 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:29,120 going to have a lot of conflict in life. 125 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:33,040 And I know this is the foundation of all academic medical schools that everybody has to be great 126 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:34,600 at all things. 127 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:36,400 And it's a fallacy, right? 128 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:40,560 You are great at one thing and then other things follow. 129 00:08:40,560 --> 00:08:44,680 They can be a close second and third, but you can't be great at so many things at the 130 00:08:44,680 --> 00:08:45,680 same time. 131 00:08:45,680 --> 00:08:46,680 Okay. 132 00:08:46,680 --> 00:08:48,960 I hope I'm not going off. 133 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,080 I'm sorry, I'm a tangent. 134 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:56,120 But clearly you can tell I feel a little bit strongly about this particular question. 135 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:57,120 Okay. 136 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,880 I want to talk to you about five things. 137 00:08:59,880 --> 00:09:02,600 If you're asking the question how to be a good mentee, I want to give you five things 138 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:04,240 to think about, okay? 139 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,360 I'm not going to answer the question about how to be a good mentee because I'm not sure 140 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:12,320 it's useful, but I am going to give you five things to think about. 141 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:17,880 Thing number one is that your job, if you're going to be a clinician scientist leading 142 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:24,280 a research program that impacts patients, your job is not to be a good mentee. 143 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:28,360 Your job is to advance your career in service of humanity. 144 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:29,360 Okay. 145 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:31,520 I want to say that again. 146 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:36,880 If you are a clinician who is transitioning to research or you're already a clinician 147 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:41,120 scientist, you're owning your place as a clinician scientist, even if you have not done this 148 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:48,200 before and you need someone to show you the way, your job is not to be good. 149 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:49,200 It's not to be a good girl. 150 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:50,760 It's not to be a good boy. 151 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:53,560 It's not to accept anybody patting you on the head and saying, oh my gosh, you're so 152 00:09:53,560 --> 00:09:54,560 good. 153 00:09:54,560 --> 00:09:57,560 Even though it feels so good. 154 00:09:57,560 --> 00:10:01,320 It feels so good when they do that, but that's not your job. 155 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:08,880 Your job is to advance your career in service of humanity because you know and I know we've 156 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:09,880 both been in the clinic. 157 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:13,680 We've both been in the hospital and you know that there is so much further that we can 158 00:10:13,680 --> 00:10:14,680 go in healthcare. 159 00:10:14,680 --> 00:10:16,680 Yes, we've made many breakthroughs. 160 00:10:16,680 --> 00:10:17,680 Oh my goodness. 161 00:10:17,680 --> 00:10:20,720 Imagine life today without penicillin or antibiotics. 162 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:21,720 Oh my goodness. 163 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:24,240 Imagine life today with our cardiac catheterizations. 164 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:25,240 Oh my goodness. 165 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:27,720 Imagine life today without transplant surgery. 166 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:32,960 We have made incredible advances in healthcare, but we know we are not done yet. 167 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:39,420 I'm at a conference this week that talks about how do we close to the disparities in access 168 00:10:39,420 --> 00:10:40,520 to clinical trials. 169 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:42,920 There's so much to be done. 170 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:49,560 And so if you are going to move forward work that serves humanity, you don't ask the question, 171 00:10:49,560 --> 00:10:51,400 how am I going to be a good person? 172 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:52,400 How am I going to be a good mentee? 173 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:56,960 How am I going to be a good mentee to my mentor? 174 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:01,400 You ask the question, how do I advance this career that's going to transform the way we 175 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:02,400 do healthcare? 176 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:05,040 That's the question you want to answer. 177 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,600 And if that's not the question you want to answer, then okay. 178 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:09,600 It's okay. 179 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,280 I'm speaking to a very specific audience today. 180 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:16,280 I'm speaking to people who came to make a transformation. 181 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:18,940 And so your job is not to be a good mentee. 182 00:11:18,940 --> 00:11:21,600 And if you are asking the question, how do I become a good mentee? 183 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:23,600 You're asking the wrong question. 184 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:27,560 Because becoming a good mentee can mean many things to different mentors. 185 00:11:27,560 --> 00:11:33,520 But does becoming a good mentee serve your purpose of advancing your career, making the 186 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:37,800 kind of impact that changes humanity? 187 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:39,880 And I think the answer is no. 188 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:40,880 Okay. 189 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:41,880 All right. 190 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:44,560 That's my first thought. 191 00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:48,960 My second thought is that your mentor does not exist to tell you what to do. 192 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:50,560 So it's an interesting perspective. 193 00:11:50,560 --> 00:11:56,120 I sat through the mentorship program and so many people at the end were like, oh my gosh, 194 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:57,120 I was so good. 195 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:58,120 And it was good. 196 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:00,120 I'm not denigrating it, please. 197 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:04,240 I have a different lens, clearly, because someone who has struggled kind of in the area 198 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:05,880 of mentoring. 199 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:16,440 I think that people feel like mentors are these great people who have the answers, the 200 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:17,840 key to all of life. 201 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:22,080 You know, like, you know, when you're looking for the elixir of life or the holy grail, 202 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:29,160 like, okay, the mentor has the keys, the keys to the kingdoms. 203 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:32,800 And if I just do well, if I just get to the place where at the end they can pat me on 204 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,840 the head and say, hey, you've done great there and give me these keys that my career is going 205 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:37,960 to be so much better. 206 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:42,440 And I just want to say that your mentor is not God, could never be. 207 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:46,400 And so don't ask mentors to be superhuman. 208 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:49,440 Don't ask them to be gods. 209 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:50,440 Mentors are just people. 210 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:55,600 They're people who've gotten insight and knowledge that has really helped them advance their 211 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,520 career and they do have insight and knowledge that will help you to advance your career, 212 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:04,040 but they cannot give you, they cannot own your career for you. 213 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:08,160 They cannot tell you where you're going, you have to decide where you're going. 214 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:14,320 Because where you're going is the sum of all the experiences you've had, the places you've 215 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:16,960 been, the things that matter to you. 216 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:21,120 You know, one of the panelists at this conference was asked, why do you do health disparities 217 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:22,120 work? 218 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:23,120 And she was like, what kind of question is that? 219 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:24,120 My whole life. 220 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:26,520 My whole life has the lens of disparities. 221 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:28,680 It's the only thing I can see. 222 00:13:28,680 --> 00:13:34,640 So her experience is so different from someone who grew up in an area that was not diverse 223 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:42,360 at all and they've never really understood why there are gaps in how people are treated. 224 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:46,240 But her lens has been a lens of disparity since she was born. 225 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:47,240 And that's what she said. 226 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:50,440 She said, I was born this way. 227 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:55,800 And so how can she have a career that's going to look the exact same as a mentor who is 228 00:13:55,800 --> 00:14:01,080 absolutely well published, probably has a Nobel Prize or two, but has never had that 229 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:02,080 same lens? 230 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:08,120 And so if she goes and she goes to her mentor and says, my job is to make you happy, guess 231 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:09,440 what she's going to do? 232 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:16,560 She's not going to be able to serve her desperate need to move forward research, science that 233 00:14:16,560 --> 00:14:22,040 advances that closes the disparity gap. 234 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:25,680 And so your mentor does not exist to tell you what to do. 235 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:30,600 Your mentor actually serves as a platform for you to realize and achieve your career 236 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:32,160 dreams. 237 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:37,120 And so I want to say that if you are having conversations with mentors about your future, 238 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:41,240 your job is not to say what projects do you have to work on so that I can work on those 239 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:42,240 projects. 240 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:46,520 Your work is to first of all, clarify for them where you're going. 241 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:51,640 Your job is to first of all, clarify for them where you're going so that they can tell you 242 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:56,760 what tools they have within their program that serves your need. 243 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:58,800 You are not there to serve your mentor. 244 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,160 Your mentor is there to serve you. 245 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,480 And if we flip it around, we think about the whole parenting thing. 246 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:09,560 So either you have been a kid or you have kids, either way you've experienced parenting 247 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:14,840 to some extent, either on the reverse side or on the side of being a parent. 248 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:19,600 You recognize that kids are not there to make their parents happy. 249 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,280 They're not there to serve the needs of their parents. 250 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,560 Parents are there to serve the needs of their children. 251 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:30,000 And then you consider that when it comes to mentoring, your mentors are there to serve 252 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:31,980 the needs of your career. 253 00:15:31,980 --> 00:15:34,840 It is not the other way around. 254 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:38,520 They are the platform upon which you launch your career. 255 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:43,240 And to be honest, as they are the platform for you to be launching, for you to launch 256 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,000 your career, it is such a rewarding thing for mentors. 257 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:47,720 It absolutely is. 258 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:53,680 And any mentor who says it is burdensome to be a mentor is a mentor who does not care 259 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:58,360 about that mentee to the same extent as they care about other mentees. 260 00:15:58,360 --> 00:15:59,360 And it's just the way it is. 261 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:03,840 It's hard to care about other people's kids in the same way as you care about yours. 262 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,980 And the difference between your kids and other people's kids is just that you own them, right? 263 00:16:07,980 --> 00:16:12,120 You may not have birthed them biologically, but you're like, I own these kids. 264 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:13,240 It's my own. 265 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:14,240 That's all you have. 266 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,600 That's the minimum, minimum qualification to be a parent. 267 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:19,320 It's like, I own this kid, right? 268 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:24,600 Whether you adopted the kid in whatever way the kid came to you, you say, I own this kid, 269 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:25,600 right? 270 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,860 But the kids you don't own, you don't have to make an investment. 271 00:16:28,860 --> 00:16:32,940 You can be like, oh, such a burden to care for this kid, right? 272 00:16:32,940 --> 00:16:35,520 So if you're a mentee and your mentor is like, this is so hard. 273 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:37,520 I'm just too hard to care for you. 274 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,560 I just need you to recognize that that's a red flag. 275 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:44,720 And you should find mentors that actually want you to succeed and do not think it's 276 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,720 a burden to serve your needs. 277 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:49,600 OK, I'm going to come down from that. 278 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:51,040 I feel very strongly about this. 279 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:52,480 Can you tell? 280 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:53,480 OK. 281 00:16:53,480 --> 00:17:02,160 Number three is that until you understand your destination for your career, your interaction 282 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:08,320 with mentors will take you to the wrong destination every time without fail. 283 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:12,140 I'm going to say that again. 284 00:17:12,140 --> 00:17:17,760 Until you understand your destination, your interaction with mentors will take you to 285 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,620 the wrong destination every time. 286 00:17:21,620 --> 00:17:23,880 It may be a beautiful destination. 287 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,200 You may be on an Alaskan cruise. 288 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,100 You may be in Hawaii. 289 00:17:28,100 --> 00:17:31,040 Maybe you're even on the Galapagos Islands. 290 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:35,680 But if it's not your destination, it is not your destination. 291 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:42,120 If somebody who is interested in health disparities research is partnered with a mentor who doesn't, 292 00:17:42,120 --> 00:17:49,120 want to have any disparities focus in their research, you are going to have great publications. 293 00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:50,880 You're going to even have a grant or two. 294 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:54,880 You're going to have plenary sessions at major meetings. 295 00:17:54,880 --> 00:18:00,340 And you're going to be miserable because you didn't come to serve a population that doesn't 296 00:18:00,340 --> 00:18:02,220 have health disparities. 297 00:18:02,220 --> 00:18:07,400 You didn't come to have a research program that doesn't help close the gap because of 298 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:13,280 the lens through which you look at the world, because of the lens through which you look 299 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:14,840 at the world. 300 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:16,800 And so you'll get to some incredible destination. 301 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:18,440 And I see people all the time. 302 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:20,760 They're like, oh my gosh, I'm so successful. 303 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:24,640 I have all this grant funding and they are so miserable because they are so far from 304 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:26,880 where they really want to be. 305 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:29,320 And that's why you don't start with a mentor on what they have. 306 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,000 You start with you and where you're going. 307 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:40,440 And you're going to find who allows you, who you allow to get on your boat to help guide 308 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:42,920 you to your destination. 309 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,360 Okay. 310 00:18:45,360 --> 00:18:52,680 Number four is that your job is to take the time to understand your destination. 311 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,940 And I won't tell you that this will be the hardest thing you will ever do. 312 00:18:56,940 --> 00:19:00,460 And the reality of it is that it is a longitudinal journey. 313 00:19:00,460 --> 00:19:02,640 It takes time to figure out where you're going. 314 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,880 It absolutely takes time. 315 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,120 And your job is to figure it out. 316 00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:14,720 And I will tell you that coaching is the strategy that has really helped me and has helped so 317 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:16,320 many people. 318 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:20,560 And I would say that every clinician and every clinician who's making the transition to lead 319 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:22,800 a research program really needs to have a mentor. 320 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,280 I really feel that strongly about it. 321 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:27,360 Every great player has a coach. 322 00:19:27,360 --> 00:19:29,120 You may have raw talent. 323 00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:33,120 You may have learned the game of, you know, since you were a child. 324 00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:39,840 But no matter what, everybody who's ever achieved greatness in sports, greatness in a game, 325 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:45,200 greatness in tennis or in soccer or in football had a coach. 326 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:50,020 And I don't know how anybody feels like they're going to be able to really achieve their game 327 00:19:50,020 --> 00:19:53,920 without someone to help them kind of like maximize their talent. 328 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,120 Yeah, I feel personally about this. 329 00:19:56,120 --> 00:19:58,600 And clearly I'm a coach, right? 330 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,880 But I also experience coaching like weekly. 331 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:08,000 Actually, honestly, if I put it all together, it's probably daily coaching. 332 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:09,000 And I'm not even kidding. 333 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:10,000 I know. 334 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:11,000 I know you're like, no way. 335 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,160 I have a peer coaching group. 336 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,680 I have a peer mentor that we connect with. 337 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:17,680 I connect with regularly. 338 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:19,560 I have an executive coach that I work with. 339 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:21,000 I even now have a health coach. 340 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,400 I am that big on coaching. 341 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:27,320 Anyway, so if you're looking for a coach, you should reach out to me so we can talk. 342 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:32,960 But anyway, I don't want to digress, but I want to tell you how hard it is to figure 343 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:33,960 out where you're going. 344 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,120 And it's going to take you some time. 345 00:20:36,120 --> 00:20:39,200 And you know, there's some of us who know from the beginning like, oh, no, no, no, no. 346 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:41,760 I came to Madison to solve the problem of health disparities. 347 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:42,760 You are so clear. 348 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,600 I just am so excited for you. 349 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:46,600 Kudos to you. 350 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:50,880 But for people like me, remember my people pleasing background. 351 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:56,080 It's very hard for us to step away from the people pleasing to say, what do I really want? 352 00:20:56,080 --> 00:21:00,680 And that is one of the most important things that you will do on this journey to becoming 353 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:01,800 a clinician scientist. 354 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:03,920 So please pause. 355 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:08,900 Stop going around looking for mentors until you're very clear where you want to go. 356 00:21:08,900 --> 00:21:13,800 Because only when you're clear about where you want to go, can you now be ready to ask 357 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:17,040 someone to show you how to get there. 358 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,000 OK. 359 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,960 The fifth thing I want to tell you is that once you've figured it out, and you don't 360 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,640 have to wait until you figure it out, once you've figured out, well, you don't have to 361 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,400 wait until you figured out the whole piece, right? 362 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:34,280 As long as you have a couple of things that you feel certain about, then you can go looking. 363 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:39,560 But when you go looking for a mentor, you're not now saying, well, which mentor is successful? 364 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,280 Take me to your success destination. 365 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:47,440 Now you're going to say, what is it with this mentor that serves my purpose? 366 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,240 What is it that this mentor has that will help me get there? 367 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,600 And it may be that you don't know, because sometimes some of us make decisions about 368 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:59,000 mentors just based on people we like, or people who look like us that we resonate with, somebody 369 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:00,000 who smiles at us. 370 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,760 You're like, well, none of the attendings have smiled at me, but this attendee actually 371 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,720 smiles like he cares about me, sure. 372 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:08,560 Why don't I connect with them? 373 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:12,980 So yeah, many of us start that mentoring journey with just somebody who would give us the time 374 00:22:12,980 --> 00:22:14,240 of day. 375 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:15,840 And it's OK. 376 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:17,800 We find mentors in different ways. 377 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:19,400 It's like love. 378 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:23,360 You just never know where that next connection will come from. 379 00:22:23,360 --> 00:22:24,360 It's the chemistry. 380 00:22:24,360 --> 00:22:28,760 What can we say? 381 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,680 And so for some of us, there's the chemistry that leads us to the mentor. 382 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:37,720 And then for the rest of us, sometimes there's a formal program, like, OK, I'm connecting 383 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:39,360 you to this person. 384 00:22:39,360 --> 00:22:43,040 But whatever way you get to your mentor, the first conversation you should start with is 385 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:47,520 not what projects are you doing that I can jump on, but to really start with what you 386 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:48,520 want to do. 387 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:52,400 And that is one of the most important conversations you have. 388 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,080 And what you want to get out of your mentoring program. 389 00:22:55,080 --> 00:23:00,240 I hear people talk about establishing mentoring contracts. 390 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,040 And it's a good idea. 391 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:08,960 I do laugh because if contracts were the answer to all things, then nobody would ever be angry 392 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,140 enough to sue anybody in court, right? 393 00:23:11,140 --> 00:23:13,360 Because contracts can be broken. 394 00:23:13,360 --> 00:23:17,160 And at the end of the day, humans have to make the decision to commit. 395 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:21,280 And contracts don't necessarily enforce that commitment. 396 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,960 I mean, it can force people to do things they don't want to do, but it can't force them 397 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:26,960 to do it well. 398 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:33,000 Anyway, so but even the idea of the contract, I think, is reasonable in thinking about, 399 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,600 like, what do you want to get out of this? 400 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:40,200 And that is, oh my goodness, it's the most important question a mentor can ever ask you. 401 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,080 What do you want? 402 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,920 And I want you to be wary of any mentor that doesn't ask you that question. 403 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:47,320 I really do. 404 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:52,800 And in reality, and this is my experience now as a mentor, is that many clinicians just 405 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:54,560 don't know what they want. 406 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:56,040 And it does break my heart. 407 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,120 Because it's like, oh, you don't know what you want. 408 00:23:59,120 --> 00:24:01,080 But it's not a thing of judgment. 409 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,900 It's just a thing of, like, well, you spent 10 years of your life, at least, not knowing 410 00:24:04,900 --> 00:24:08,980 what you want, just doing what you're told or doing what is necessary. 411 00:24:08,980 --> 00:24:13,200 And now to come to a place where you get to choose, it's very hard for many of us. 412 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,240 It was hard for me, and so I don't judge it. 413 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:21,960 And I do think that your journey and your journey of mentorship is to clarify. 414 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:28,720 Because sometimes when mentees don't show up, when they don't deliver, it's not because 415 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,000 they're not reliable. 416 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,780 It's because they don't resonate with the work. 417 00:24:33,780 --> 00:24:37,840 And I think it's important to recognize that and to set people free. 418 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:39,260 I will tell you, I'm one of those mentors. 419 00:24:39,260 --> 00:24:44,640 I don't force you to do what you don't want to do, because this is not about you just 420 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:46,040 moving work forward. 421 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,480 It really is about you coming into your destiny. 422 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,280 It's about you coming into your own. 423 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:59,160 It's about you having a career that really feels tangible, like really feels satisfying 424 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,220 to you, fulfilling. 425 00:25:02,220 --> 00:25:05,240 Because I want to see clinician scientists thrive. 426 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,040 I do. 427 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:12,320 And so you want to identify what part of your mentor serves your purpose. 428 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:13,720 All right. 429 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:15,680 Those are five things I shared with you. 430 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,080 So yes, it was a bait and switch. 431 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,480 I told you I would answer the question of how to be a good mentee, and then I turned 432 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,960 around and gave you five things to think about, about why you should not be asking that question. 433 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,080 And the first thing is that your job is not to be a good mentee. 434 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,720 Your job is to advance your career in service of humanity. 435 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,800 Number two, your mentor does not exist to tell you what to do. 436 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,000 They are the platform to launch your career. 437 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:44,160 Number three, until you understand your destination, your interaction with mentors will take you 438 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:48,880 to the wrong destination, even if it's a beautiful one. 439 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:54,320 Number four, your job is to take time to uncover your direction, to uncover your destination, 440 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,840 to uncover where you're going. 441 00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:02,720 Number five, then you can meet with a mentor to identify what part of them you want to 442 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:04,340 take with you. 443 00:26:04,340 --> 00:26:06,920 What part of them will serve your journey. 444 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,440 All right, controversial topic. 445 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:11,200 You probably have some ideas about it. 446 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:12,200 Please share them with me. 447 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,240 You can do it in three ways. 448 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:18,240 Number one, you can send me a DM through social media. 449 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:19,960 I am on Instagram. 450 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,400 I'm on Facebook and on LinkedIn. 451 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:29,440 You can send me a podcast voicemail through our podcast website, clinicianresearcherpodcast.com. 452 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,520 And number three, you can send me an email, info at coagcoach.com. 453 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,280 Let me know what you think. 454 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:41,640 I'd love to share your thoughts in a future episode. 455 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,040 It has been a pleasure talking with you. 456 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:48,480 Now, if you have ideas for episodes that I should record, please share them with me. 457 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,200 I'd be happy to record an episode especially for you. 458 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,560 All right, it's been a pleasure talking with you today. 459 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:56,480 Thanks for taking time to listen. 460 00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:05,640 Enjoy your day. 461 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:11,000 Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast, where academic 462 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:16,280 clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they 463 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:17,800 have a mentor. 464 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:23,760 If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself. 465 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:25,640 Someone else needs to hear it. 466 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,680 So take a minute right now and share it. 467 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:35,160 As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation 468 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:56,200 of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.