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Aug. 30, 2024
Key factors in selecting a research mentee
In this episode, Dr. Onwuemene shares her evolving approach to selecting research mentees. As a seasoned mentor, she reflects on the importance of being selective, ensuring alignment with her long-term research goals, and the challenges of providing the intense support required by those new to research.
Key Points Discussed:
- Bandwidth: The first consideration is the mentor’s capacity to invest time and energy into a new mentee. This consideration is especially important when the mentee lacks research experience.
- Team Support: The research team plays a crucial role in mentoring. The team's ability to support the mentee in basic tasks and provide additional guidance is essential.
- Mentee’s Motives: Understanding why a potential mentee wants to join the research program is key. It is important to distinguish between those who are genuinely interested in research vs. those who are seeking a quick publication or letter of recommendation.
- Time Horizon: The length of time a mentee can commit is a critical factor. It typically takes at least a year to see substantial results from original research projects.
- Alignment with Research Goals: It is important to align the mentee’s goals with the long-term objectives of the research program. A misalignment can lead to scattered efforts and reduced effectiveness.
- Research Skill Level: The mentee's prior research experience influences the decision. Mentees with more experience require less intensive mentoring, allowing for a more balanced distribution of time and resources.
- Project Prioritization: The types of projects a mentee is interested in also play a role in the selection process.
Call to Action:
If you have questions about mentorship or any other topic, feel free to reach out! Your question might be featured in a future episode. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Clinician Researcher Podcast and leave a review if you found this episode helpful.
Sponsor/Advertising/Monetization Information:
This episode is sponsored by Coag Coach LLC, a leading provider of coaching resources for clinicians transitioning to become research leaders. Coag Coach LLC is committed to supporting clinicians in their scholarship.
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Sign up for a coaching discovery call today: https://www.coagcoach.com/service-page/consultation-call-1
Transcript
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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills
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to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.
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As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.
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When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find
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that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research
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program.
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Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.
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However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.
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For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians
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the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.
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Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.
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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast.
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I'm your host, Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is an absolute pleasure to be talking with you
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today.
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Thank you so much for tuning in.
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Today's podcast episode is dedicated to a listener who submitted a question that I'm
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going to answer in this podcast.
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And it's a long question, so I'm not going to read it all, but this is really about the
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topic of mentorship.
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So sometimes potential mentors can share an area of interest, but then they choose not
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to mentor you.
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They choose a different mentee.
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And so the question is really around how as a mentor do you choose a mentee to work with?
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And I think it's a great question, and I'm excited to answer it because honestly, I didn't
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have a process.
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At least I didn't think I had a process.
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But more recently, I've gotten really selective, and I'm pretty clear on what my process is
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right now.
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And so for that reason, I want to share this podcast episode.
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And I have seven things I'm going to talk about.
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And this is personal to me, what I think about when I'm choosing a research mentee.
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There are probably other things that other mentors think about, but you'll find that
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there's probably going to be some overlap.
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So now we'll talk about seven things I think about when I'm choosing a research mentee.
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I'll tell you that this actually really became important for me really a couple of months
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ago when I was invited to write a paper in a topic area that I had been working on a
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different group of mentees with.
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I'd been working with them on a different particular paper, and this paper was related
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to the paper they've been working on.
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And I was like, well, I didn't want to take on the paper, but I said this would be a good
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opportunity for them.
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It would be an opportunity for them to publish.
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And they're already working on this, why not?
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That was what I was thinking at the beginning.
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Fast forward several months later, and I put in so much work into this particular manuscript
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that they were working on.
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And this is not to say anything negative about them in any way, they did an outstanding job.
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But I realized I was like, I don't want to do this again.
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I do not want to make this kind of investment on this level, because now I just want people
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who are mature in my program.
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But I want to explain that in just a little bit.
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But I remember just thinking, okay, next time they're going to have to come through my regular
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team, I'm going to have one of the senior members of my team take them on rather than
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me taking them on individually.
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And maybe I'll give a little bit of background to say that mentoring is intense.
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So there are different levels of mentoring.
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And what I'm going to focus on right now is research mentoring.
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And it's important for me to make that distinction.
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It is very easy for me to sponsor somebody.
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I'm in a room, people are having a conversation, who would be a great person to do this, or
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somebody invites me to do something that I don't want to do, or I don't have the bandwidth
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to do.
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I'll say, oh, I'm not available.
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And you should think of x, y, z.
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That's so easy.
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That's an email.
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Or someone reaches out to me and they say, hey, I would like for you to talk to me about
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my career.
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Oh, that's so easy.
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That's like a 30 minute conversation.
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Let's do it.
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Sometimes I invite people to my coaching meetings, which I do on Monday, Mondays at 6pm.
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And I'll say, come join us.
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And I can, we can, you can be part of a group.
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It's a coaching group, but to some extent, there's a little bit of mentoring that goes
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on there as well.
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And that's great.
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That's very easy.
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But when somebody says, I want you to be my research mentor.
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Okay, that's on a different level.
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That's not 30 minutes.
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That's literally 60 minutes every week consistently emails in between reviewing manuscripts in
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between.
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It is intensive work.
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It is like having a child.
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I didn't used to think this way before, but it really is.
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And so once upon a time, especially when you're a newbie person, a newbie parent, you have
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no idea how intensive it is to take care of someone who is very, very not knowledgeable
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in the area in which you're going to mentor them.
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And so you're pretty wide open.
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You're like, yeah, I'll take anybody who wants to work with me.
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Because when you're starting out, most people don't want to work with you.
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They want to work with the established mentor who's been around for 25 years and has 300
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publications to their name.
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And even if they may not have time to mentor you, those are the mentors a lot of people
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are going after.
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So when I started out, I was just like, if you want to work with me, just come on.
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That was not very many people.
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So I only started with one mentee.
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And then it's grown over time.
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And so I likened my first mentee experience to the parent who did not know that a newborn
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baby was a big deal.
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Why was that parent?
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I read no books.
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I was just like, oh, baby's coming.
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I can do this.
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I've been doing this for generations.
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And then by the end of the second or third week of sleepless nights, I was crying all
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the time.
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And I was like, holy cow, what did I get myself into?
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OK, so I'm likening mentoring to that.
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Now I'm like, yeah, I know better.
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I know better than to pursue a newborn baby.
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I don't want that in my life right now.
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Not because newborn babies are not awesome, but because I now know what it takes, what
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kind of investment it takes to grow a newborn baby.
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And so I know I'm talking about mentees, adults, not newborn babies.
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But that is the level of investment that is required because a research mentee, especially
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if it's an MD research mentee, doesn't have much research training.
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And so a lot of training is going to need to be done.
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And you're going to need to create an atmosphere that's warm and welcoming and friendly.
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So you want to be able to make that investment.
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OK, so let's talk about these seven items.
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Number one right now for me is bandwidth.
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It takes a lot to invest in mentoring somebody who has no research experience.
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It takes a lot.
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And when I was starting out in research, I didn't know how much I needed.
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You know, you just don't know what you don't know.
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I mean, I needed mentoring in writing manuscripts.
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I mean, I'm a good writer.
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The scientific writing is different.
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And then scientific writing for publication is different.
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Then reviewing, revising, that's different.
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You literally need intense coaching, mentoring in each of these things.
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And this is just writing.
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We're just talking about writing manuscripts.
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OK, let's talk about grants.
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That's a whole nother level of grant writing, right, of mentoring and grant writing.
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And then let's talk about research mentoring.
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That's a whole nother level of investment.
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So it takes a lot to mentor someone, especially if they have no prior experience.
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And so the first thing I think about is my bandwidth, right, and my bandwidth relative
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to the person.
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Now, if this is someone who's like, oh, I've been doing research with this mentor, I've
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done research here, I've done research there, then they're not really actually asking me
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to be their research mentor as much as they're already like adolescents.
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They're just needing a little bit more like, OK, I've experienced in these areas.
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I now want to gain experience in this area.
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Well, that's great.
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They've learned all the basic skills.
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And so the bandwidth to invest in somebody who has all the basic skills or has advanced
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skills and it's just like, I just need a little bit more here.
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That's different from the bandwidth to invest in mentoring someone who has no research skills
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to boot.
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And most MDs coming into a fellowship program or coming into a faculty position, they've
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literally had very little to no research training.
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So my first question is, do I have the bandwidth to be able to do this?
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And that is meeting weekly, that is in mails in between, that is feedback appropriately.
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It's a lot of investment of time.
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And so the first question is, can I do it?
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And sometimes someone's a great mentee and I want to invest in them.
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And I just realized that, oh, I may not be able to do this right now because of other
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projects that I have going on because of the number of mentees I already have.
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If you're really going to do the mentoring, especially of early career faculty who don't
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have much research training, you want to make sure you have time because the worst thing,
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and this happens to a lot of mentees who are looking at senior mentors who've been around
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for years and years and years, the reality is that they don't have the bandwidth, but
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they say, come on anyway.
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And then you have a newborn baby who really needs a lot of tender loving care and instead
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they're abandoned and then they start to have failure to thrive.
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And so this happened to me because, and in general, people are always looking at the
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big senior mentors who've been around a long time.
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And sometimes some of the best mentors are mentors who are just starting out because
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they have a lot of time and not very many people are subscribing to them.
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They have potential, they're going to go far, but you're looking at the person who actually
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doesn't have time for you.
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Now we'll talk a little bit about how their team may be able to support you even if they
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are not.
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But if you're looking for the direct one-on-one mentoring, the more senior a person is, the
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less time they probably have to spend with you.
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So the first thing I ask is, do I have bandwidth?
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Should do the intense mentoring that this person needs to become what they want to become?
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Because it's not about what I want them to become, it's about what they want to become.
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So number one, do I have bandwidth?
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My bandwidth, yes, my bandwidth.
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Number two, and this is a little bit more recent for me, the bandwidth of my team.
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Okay, so I've gotten to a place now where I don't want to take on a brand new mentee
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who has absolutely no research skills unless that person is going to come through members
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of my research team who have some skills that they can impart.
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So now what I will do is I'll say, you can come into my team and I have a senior mentor,
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a senior member of my research team, and I'll say, work with the senior member and that's
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all, and that's how you're getting the mentoring.
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So it's not that I'm not mentoring, it's just the intensity of the mentoring, the initial
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look at drafts and recommendations on how to structure writing, that's all happening
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outside of me right now.
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And by the time work gets to me, it's mature enough so that I'm investing minimal amount
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of time to be able to move the work forward.
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Okay, so that's exactly what I mean by my team bandwidth because I have to look at the
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projects that my team is working on.
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I know it takes a lot of time to do this intense mentoring and I want to know what's the quality
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of your work you're going to be mentoring in.
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Because many times people come in and they're like, I want to do a case report.
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And to be honest, I'm not down in case reports.
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I've done a lot of them, I still do them.
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But case reports don't get you as far as say original research.
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And when I look at my team's bandwidth and I say you have four original research papers
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that we're trying to get out and this person wants to come in and do a case report, you,
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my teammates, my team members can do that mentoring on their own without my input, right,
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to be able to write a case report because they've done this enough times.
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But now they're going to take away time for an original research from an original research
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manuscript which is higher in the hierarchy to spend time helping somebody write a case
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report.
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So that's why I think about, well, now if I find a newbie, a very early career person
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who doesn't have much, by the way, of research skills, I'm asking can my team support them
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in the things that I don't want to support them in or at least I don't have the bandwidth
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to support them in.
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And so you can see that number one is am I going to be the one to do it all or do I have
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a team that can help me to do it so I can do the higher level, the higher level mentoring.
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So that is why number two is really, will my team be able to support the little things
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that I may not be able to support.
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For example, the senior member of my team is able to meet with other members of my team
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a little bit more frequently.
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I meet with everybody once a week.
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I don't meet more than once a week.
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Sometimes I'll meet, like the senior member of my team, I'll meet more than once a week
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because we have other things we want to talk about outside of our group meetings.
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But if more is needed, and sometimes when you're just starting out, you need a lot more
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than just a once a week mentoring meeting.
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And that's why I want to know, can my team support the questions that are needed that
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they can easily answer that I may not have bandwidth to answer except but once a week.
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So does my team have the bandwidth?
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That's number two.
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Number three, now number one and two, as you can see, I'm starting with me.
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Can I support this new person?
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Can I support this child, this newborn, right?
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And this is not disrespecting the faculty member or the fellow.
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It's just saying you need a lot.
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Can I support what you need?
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The third thing now is the motives of the mentee.
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Okay.
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I will interview anybody who wants to be a mentee in my research program.
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And when I interview them, and I'm not telling them it's an interview, it's just a conversation,
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but I want to know why they want to get into research.
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And many times I find that people are not really interested in getting into research.
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They just need a publication with their name on it.
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It's like, hey, I'm going to be applying for a fellowship three months from now, and I
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need a publication with my name on it.
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Okay.
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That is different.
250
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That's not I need a research mentor.
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That's I need a publication with my name on it like yesterday.
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There's a little bit of energy of desperation that comes with that.
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I tend to avoid that.
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Like as soon as I hear people talking about, I only have six months to work with you, and
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I need a paper right away, I just know I'm not going to be a research mentor because
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it takes time to birth research.
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It takes time to do the research.
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It takes time to write up the research.
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It takes time to work through revisions.
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If you're looking from start to finish of an original research manuscript, it could
261
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very well be a year, and it could be longer, depending on how long it takes to do the research,
262
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gather the data, analyze the data, then write it up, then do the submission, wait a couple
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of months, get the first set of revisions, wait a couple of weeks, resubmit it, maybe
264
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get another set of, I mean, it takes time.
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So when someone shows up and they're like, I just need my name on a manuscript and I
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want to do it in three months, I know that I'm not going to be able to help them achieve
267
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that, and I'm not going to take them on.
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I'm not.
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So that's one group.
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That's one kind of motive where your motive doesn't align with my long-term strategy because
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I'm building a research program.
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I'm not just here to just churn out a couple of papers, and that's what I'm building.
273
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It's the long game.
274
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And if someone's here to play a very, very, very short game, I'm not able to support that.
275
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Okay.
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The other thing as far as motive is sometimes people are looking for a letter of recommendation
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and like, I want to be in your research program because I'm going to apply, and then I want
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your letter.
279
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I am happy to write letters for people.
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If I know you enough, like if we've met a couple of times, you'll send me your CV and
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I will write you a letter.
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I usually will write you a letter.
283
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I can do that.
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That's not, you don't need to be in my research program for me to write you a letter.
285
00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:46,440
So in my discussion, I really want to understand what does the mentee want?
286
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What does the mentee want?
287
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It really, I want to be sure that whatever their goals are, it aligns with my goals,
288
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the goals of my research program.
289
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Otherwise, I'm scattered in too many different directions.
290
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I'm not able to be effective.
291
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Focus is important.
292
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And so making sure that the motives of the mentee align with the motives of my program
293
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or align with the long-term goals of my program is absolutely critical.
294
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And so very early on, the minute it becomes clear that somebody is looking for short-term
295
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gain, I will say, I'm not the person for you.
296
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I won't say it so directly, but I'll say, I know another mentor who you should talk
297
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to because what they're looking for is a paper that's at the door or a paper that's already
298
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gone through revisions.
299
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And maybe the first author doesn't have time anymore to address it.
300
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That's what they're looking for.
301
00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:35,740
Because a three month turnaround is a paper that's about to be accepted.
302
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It's not a paper that's still being written.
303
00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:39,320
Right?
304
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All right.
305
00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:42,980
And that's why number four is their time horizon.
306
00:16:42,980 --> 00:16:47,460
So when people are like, I have six months, I just know that's not going to work out.
307
00:16:47,460 --> 00:16:48,960
It takes time.
308
00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:51,140
It really takes time to build skill.
309
00:16:51,140 --> 00:16:54,780
So in my research program, the longest person who's been with me has probably been with
310
00:16:54,780 --> 00:16:56,320
me for five years.
311
00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:57,560
And there's still a lot that I'm teaching.
312
00:16:57,560 --> 00:16:59,960
There's still a lot that they're learning.
313
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I mean, this person is outstanding.
314
00:17:02,540 --> 00:17:04,760
And if you're listening to me, you know who I'm talking about.
315
00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:05,760
You are awesome.
316
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Thank you so much for the skill and the excellence you bring to the research program.
317
00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,080
And they're still learning, like we all are learning.
318
00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:14,080
Right?
319
00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:19,080
The more I'm advancing and looking at different strategies, different analytic techniques,
320
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I have new collaborators.
321
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There's a new level of learning.
322
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And so it really does take time to grow.
323
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And so when someone's like, I only have six months, I know that they're not going to have
324
00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:35,640
enough time to learn the skills that they need to, to be successful or to even contribute
325
00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,160
successfully to my research program.
326
00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:42,840
So when someone says, I only have six months, that's already a no.
327
00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:46,600
If somebody has a year, hmm, I don't know.
328
00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:48,600
It depends on what they want out of the program.
329
00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:49,600
Right?
330
00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:50,600
Again, going back to what did they need?
331
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What are their goals?
332
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What's their motive?
333
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Because the thing is that if you're going to do original research, it really takes a
334
00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:04,400
long time from conception to doing the IRB and getting everything together, doing the
335
00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,880
research, collecting the data, it takes a long time.
336
00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:11,720
And so when someone only has a year, that's cutting it close.
337
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And maybe that they collect the data, but they're not going to be able to write it up
338
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or they write it up and then they're not going to be able to stay through the revisions process.
339
00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:24,240
And I have to tell you that when somebody leaves your research program, it is very hard
340
00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:25,240
to reconnect with them.
341
00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,680
And when we're talking about MDs, they're leaving to go back to the clinical space,
342
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right?
343
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Maybe they're starting intern year or they're starting fellowship.
344
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They don't have time to respond to your email saying, hey, we need those revisions because
345
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the deadline is coming.
346
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And so even a year is a little bit stretching it.
347
00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:45,800
Two years, it's like, okay, that's enough time for me to teach you basic skills.
348
00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:47,900
That's enough time for you to be able to really contribute.
349
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That's enough time for you to do the work it takes to be a first author on a paper.
350
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So two years is about, I think, a minimum, I think.
351
00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:58,440
I mean, I will do shorter.
352
00:18:58,440 --> 00:18:59,440
It depends, right?
353
00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:00,440
It depends on many things.
354
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:01,440
All these factors come together.
355
00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,960
There's not one factor that necessarily drives everything.
356
00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:09,640
But I will say that anything less than a year is a no-go.
357
00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:11,760
It's not a research mentoring experience.
358
00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:16,160
It can just be a career mentoring, but it cannot be a research mentoring because there's
359
00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,760
really not enough time for you to grow in the skills like you need to.
360
00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:25,440
I mean, again, if you're an MD, clinician only, you've not really done much research.
361
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:26,640
There's a lot of learning.
362
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:33,400
If you think about your PhD colleagues who did six years for their PhD and then in between,
363
00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:37,720
they did graduate research assistantships and then they also did postdoc number one
364
00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:38,840
and postdoc number two.
365
00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:40,980
And then they're like, I still need training.
366
00:19:40,980 --> 00:19:47,240
You recognize how anemic, relatively speaking, an MD's training is relative to the PhD researcher.
367
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So there's a lot to learn and it really does take time to build skill.
368
00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:56,360
And so when people have a time horizon that's too short to build skill and contribute meaningfully,
369
00:19:56,360 --> 00:20:00,800
I'm not going to consider them as a first pick for mentee.
370
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:05,840
I would have done it a longer time ago, but now with the priorities of the program and
371
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,920
with how busy we are, I would consider that very carefully.
372
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All right, so the time horizon, that's number four.
373
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Number five is their level of understanding of what it takes.
374
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:20,580
Now this is a little bit of borrowing from a couple of the other points I've said.
375
00:20:20,580 --> 00:20:24,440
When somebody shows up to me and says, I have six months and I want to get a paper in six
376
00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:28,440
months and then I'll be done, I know they don't understand what it takes.
377
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:36,560
I know they don't have any idea of how much is involved in the investment in really growing
378
00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:38,200
in research.
379
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:43,120
And so I want to get a sense of how much they understand.
380
00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:47,120
I want to get a sense of how much they understand how writing is important to the process.
381
00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:53,180
I want to get a sense of how much I understand that they know what's involved.
382
00:20:53,180 --> 00:20:56,080
They know the level of excellence that's needed.
383
00:20:56,080 --> 00:21:01,120
I mean, sometimes I've had people just throw words together and send me a document and
384
00:21:01,120 --> 00:21:04,120
I think, wait a minute, this is less than excellent.
385
00:21:04,120 --> 00:21:05,620
No way.
386
00:21:05,620 --> 00:21:07,320
So I want to know.
387
00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,680
And I don't know, I don't know them, but I'm evaluating.
388
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:15,460
I'm evaluating the emails that they send me, the completeness of their sentences, how well
389
00:21:15,460 --> 00:21:17,000
do they write?
390
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:21,080
We might do a small project together just to start, just for me to test the waters to
391
00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:24,160
say, okay, well, can we do this?
392
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,560
But again, I want to have a sense of how committed is this person?
393
00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,560
Do they understand the level of commitment it takes?
394
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,000
I think people think sometimes that research is easy.
395
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,440
It's like, oh, thank God it's not clinical work.
396
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:37,000
It'll be easy.
397
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:38,000
It's not easy.
398
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:39,080
It's hard work.
399
00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:40,160
And it takes time.
400
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:41,160
It takes commitment.
401
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:42,800
It takes excellence.
402
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:48,640
I want to know that people understand what kind of commitment is needed to advance research.
403
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:52,720
If I don't have a sense that they have a sense, I'm not going to move forward with a mentoring
404
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:53,720
relationship.
405
00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:54,720
All right.
406
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:59,560
Number seven is how much time they have to do the work.
407
00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:01,080
Oh, this is a big one.
408
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:06,880
And this is one that has stumped me a couple of times.
409
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:08,240
Clinical people are busy people.
410
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:13,200
And I say that as someone who's fully, well, used to be fully clinical, but I totally understand
411
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,200
how much it takes to take care of patients.
412
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:21,440
So I can say with certainty that most MDs don't have time to do research, period.
413
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:25,600
Now many MDs are trying to do research at nights or on weekends.
414
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:27,040
And I want to say I salute you.
415
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:28,040
I commend you.
416
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:29,300
It is how I started.
417
00:22:29,300 --> 00:22:31,280
It's how many people start.
418
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:35,640
But it can only be a starting place where you ultimately need to expand the time that
419
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:40,280
you have for research beyond just your night and weekends hours, because in reality, you
420
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:41,840
are only human.
421
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,020
Maybe you can pull an all-nighter this week.
422
00:22:44,020 --> 00:22:48,940
Maybe you can binge right through your weekend this weekend, but it's not sustainable.
423
00:22:48,940 --> 00:22:51,560
And research is about sustainability.
424
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:53,760
It is about long-term sustainability.
425
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:58,880
And if for whatever reason, it doesn't look as if you have time to do the research.
426
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:03,400
It doesn't look as if there's any space for you in between your 300 clinics.
427
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:04,840
I'm being facetious.
428
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:09,280
In between three clinics that you're doing the week, if you're constantly kind of like
429
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,880
in the cycle of, oh gosh, I haven't finished closing my charts.
430
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,200
When I finish closing my charts, I'll be able to do the work.
431
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,200
I know that you don't have time to do the work.
432
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,000
I know I'm going to be chasing you down.
433
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:21,560
Let me give you an example.
434
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:25,840
I had a recent manuscript resubmission that needed to be done with mentees that I had
435
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:27,560
worked with on this manuscript.
436
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:32,480
And at the time that the revisions came back, they didn't have time.
437
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,480
So guess who ended up doing all the revisions?
438
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:36,720
Me.
439
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:38,640
And you know, I know how to write.
440
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:45,120
I'm not afraid to write, but it takes a lot to do the work of revising.
441
00:23:45,120 --> 00:23:49,320
And part of being a mentee in my program is to learn to do that.
442
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:50,320
Right?
443
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:54,280
So it's a learning opportunity for you to a greater extent than it is for me.
444
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,000
So I want you to do that work.
445
00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:00,560
If you don't even have time to do it, then I have to make the investment to do that work.
446
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:05,300
This is a paper I only took on because I knew it would be a benefit to you.
447
00:24:05,300 --> 00:24:07,200
And now I'm doing all the work.
448
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:12,080
I don't want to do that because what it means is that while I'm doing all the work of revising
449
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:17,120
and, and you know, like going line by line through the reviewer comments, I'm not writing
450
00:24:17,120 --> 00:24:20,240
the grant that funds the rest of my research program.
451
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:22,760
Do you see the opportunity cost?
452
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,140
It's not that I don't want to make the big investments.
453
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It's just that every time I have to pick up the slack for someone who didn't do the work
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that they were supposed to because they were too busy, it means that I leave the bigger
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things that other people can't do for me to do the things that people should be able to
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do as part of their work within the research program.
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Okay.
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So I've talked about seven things and now that I'm listening to myself, I'm like, is
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that tough?
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That sounds a little bit tough, but I tell you, it's the reality.
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It's the reality of over time, you start to figure out that, wow, time, time has boundaries.
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And if you're going to do the things you want to do well, you have to choose what are the
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things only I can do?
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What are the things others can do for me?
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And so that's why the mentee mentoring relationship is a two-way relationship.
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It doesn't mean I'm asking my mentees to pay me back.
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It just means it's like, while you're growing, you're going to move the research program
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forward and you're going to free up my time so that I can do the things that continue
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to move the research program forward.
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That's how you are helping me.
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You're helping me because you're the person who first of all went through all the reviewer
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comments, you wrote comment one, okay, this is how we're going to respond.
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You did the first pass.
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So when I look at it, I'm not now saying, oh, wait a minute, what did the reviewer say
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again?
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Where in the manuscript is it?
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You've done all that for me.
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That saves me time.
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And so I can help you grow in that way while, and while you're working on it, I'm doing
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something else.
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So there's that mutual benefit.
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It's not that I need you to do things for me.
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It's that in the process of your learning, you're taking work off my plate that I don't
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have to do because you're doing it.
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And in reality, it takes you longer probably than it takes me to do it, but that's part
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of your learning.
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And when you come back, then there's a back and forth of me helping you take it to the
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next level.
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But if I have to come in and step in and do the work that you're supposed to do, then
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it's no longer a benefit to me.
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Now it's a drag.
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All right.
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So seven things, number one, my bandwidth, number two, the bandwidth of my team, number
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three, the motives of the mentee, number four, their time horizon, number five, their level
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of understanding of what it takes, number six, whether this relationship will help them
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or not, number seven, how much time they actually have to do the work.
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All right.
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I hope this has been helpful to you.
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I'd love to hear about you as you start to mentor or you probably are a seasoned mentor.
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What are some things you consider as you're thinking about whether you take on a mentee
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or not?
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And I want to say that if somebody doesn't ask, invite you to be a mentee in their research
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program, don't lose heart over it, but think about what you really, really need, what your
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goals are and whether this is the research team that will serve you and be explicit about
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what you want, because then it's important if your goals do not align with the goals
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of the would be mentor, you want to not be in that relationship.
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00:27:20,460 --> 00:27:25,800
And so it can be a benefit to you if a mentor says, no, thank you, because already it just
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cuts out a lot of the pain and suffering that could happen with not having alignment.
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And so alignment is important for you.
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00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,280
And so don't feel bad if a mentor doesn't choose you.
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It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you.
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It just means that the mentor does not see alignment in one way or the other.
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All right.
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00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,240
It's been a pleasure talking with you again.
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I'm always in the market to coach if you're looking for a coach.
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And if not, I invite you to please share this episode with someone who's going to benefit
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00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:53,880
from it.
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00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:54,880
All right.
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It's been a pleasure talking with you today.
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I look forward to talking with you again next time on the Clinician Researcher Podcast.
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00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:01,440
Have a great evening.
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00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:11,080
Have a great day.
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00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:16,440
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast, where academic
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00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:21,760
clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they
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have a mentor.
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00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:29,360
If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.
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00:28:29,360 --> 00:28:31,080
Someone else needs to hear it.
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00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:35,140
So take a minute right now and share it.
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00:28:35,140 --> 00:28:40,600
As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation
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00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:53,480
of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,860
Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills
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00:00:05,860 --> 00:00:11,260
to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.
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As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.
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When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find
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that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research
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program.
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Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.
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However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.
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For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians
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the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.
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Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.
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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast.
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I'm your host, Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is an absolute pleasure to be talking with you
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today.
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Thank you so much for tuning in.
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Today's podcast episode is dedicated to a listener who submitted a question that I'm
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going to answer in this podcast.
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And it's a long question, so I'm not going to read it all, but this is really about the
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topic of mentorship.
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So sometimes potential mentors can share an area of interest, but then they choose not
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to mentor you.
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They choose a different mentee.
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And so the question is really around how as a mentor do you choose a mentee to work with?
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And I think it's a great question, and I'm excited to answer it because honestly, I didn't
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have a process.
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At least I didn't think I had a process.
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But more recently, I've gotten really selective, and I'm pretty clear on what my process is
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right now.
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And so for that reason, I want to share this podcast episode.
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And I have seven things I'm going to talk about.
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And this is personal to me, what I think about when I'm choosing a research mentee.
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There are probably other things that other mentors think about, but you'll find that
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there's probably going to be some overlap.
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So now we'll talk about seven things I think about when I'm choosing a research mentee.
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I'll tell you that this actually really became important for me really a couple of months
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ago when I was invited to write a paper in a topic area that I had been working on a
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different group of mentees with.
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I'd been working with them on a different particular paper, and this paper was related
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to the paper they've been working on.
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And I was like, well, I didn't want to take on the paper, but I said this would be a good
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opportunity for them.
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It would be an opportunity for them to publish.
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And they're already working on this, why not?
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That was what I was thinking at the beginning.
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Fast forward several months later, and I put in so much work into this particular manuscript
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that they were working on.
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And this is not to say anything negative about them in any way, they did an outstanding job.
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But I realized I was like, I don't want to do this again.
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I do not want to make this kind of investment on this level, because now I just want people
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who are mature in my program.
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But I want to explain that in just a little bit.
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But I remember just thinking, okay, next time they're going to have to come through my regular
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team, I'm going to have one of the senior members of my team take them on rather than
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me taking them on individually.
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And maybe I'll give a little bit of background to say that mentoring is intense.
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So there are different levels of mentoring.
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And what I'm going to focus on right now is research mentoring.
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And it's important for me to make that distinction.
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It is very easy for me to sponsor somebody.
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I'm in a room, people are having a conversation, who would be a great person to do this, or
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somebody invites me to do something that I don't want to do, or I don't have the bandwidth
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to do.
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I'll say, oh, I'm not available.
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And you should think of x, y, z.
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That's so easy.
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That's an email.
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Or someone reaches out to me and they say, hey, I would like for you to talk to me about
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my career.
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Oh, that's so easy.
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That's like a 30 minute conversation.
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Let's do it.
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Sometimes I invite people to my coaching meetings, which I do on Monday, Mondays at 6pm.
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And I'll say, come join us.
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And I can, we can, you can be part of a group.
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It's a coaching group, but to some extent, there's a little bit of mentoring that goes
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on there as well.
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And that's great.
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That's very easy.
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But when somebody says, I want you to be my research mentor.
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Okay, that's on a different level.
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That's not 30 minutes.
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That's literally 60 minutes every week consistently emails in between reviewing manuscripts in
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between.
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It is intensive work.
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It is like having a child.
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I didn't used to think this way before, but it really is.
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And so once upon a time, especially when you're a newbie person, a newbie parent, you have
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no idea how intensive it is to take care of someone who is very, very not knowledgeable
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in the area in which you're going to mentor them.
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And so you're pretty wide open.
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You're like, yeah, I'll take anybody who wants to work with me.
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Because when you're starting out, most people don't want to work with you.
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They want to work with the established mentor who's been around for 25 years and has 300
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publications to their name.
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And even if they may not have time to mentor you, those are the mentors a lot of people
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are going after.
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So when I started out, I was just like, if you want to work with me, just come on.
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That was not very many people.
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So I only started with one mentee.
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And then it's grown over time.
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And so I likened my first mentee experience to the parent who did not know that a newborn
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baby was a big deal.
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Why was that parent?
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I read no books.
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I was just like, oh, baby's coming.
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I can do this.
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I've been doing this for generations.
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And then by the end of the second or third week of sleepless nights, I was crying all
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the time.
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And I was like, holy cow, what did I get myself into?
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OK, so I'm likening mentoring to that.
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Now I'm like, yeah, I know better.
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I know better than to pursue a newborn baby.
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I don't want that in my life right now.
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Not because newborn babies are not awesome, but because I now know what it takes, what
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kind of investment it takes to grow a newborn baby.
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And so I know I'm talking about mentees, adults, not newborn babies.
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But that is the level of investment that is required because a research mentee, especially
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if it's an MD research mentee, doesn't have much research training.
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And so a lot of training is going to need to be done.
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And you're going to need to create an atmosphere that's warm and welcoming and friendly.
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So you want to be able to make that investment.
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OK, so let's talk about these seven items.
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Number one right now for me is bandwidth.
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It takes a lot to invest in mentoring somebody who has no research experience.
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It takes a lot.
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And when I was starting out in research, I didn't know how much I needed.
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You know, you just don't know what you don't know.
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I mean, I needed mentoring in writing manuscripts.
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I mean, I'm a good writer.
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The scientific writing is different.
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And then scientific writing for publication is different.
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Then reviewing, revising, that's different.
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You literally need intense coaching, mentoring in each of these things.
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And this is just writing.
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We're just talking about writing manuscripts.
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OK, let's talk about grants.
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That's a whole nother level of grant writing, right, of mentoring and grant writing.
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And then let's talk about research mentoring.
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That's a whole nother level of investment.
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So it takes a lot to mentor someone, especially if they have no prior experience.
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And so the first thing I think about is my bandwidth, right, and my bandwidth relative
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to the person.
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Now, if this is someone who's like, oh, I've been doing research with this mentor, I've
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done research here, I've done research there, then they're not really actually asking me
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to be their research mentor as much as they're already like adolescents.
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They're just needing a little bit more like, OK, I've experienced in these areas.
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I now want to gain experience in this area.
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Well, that's great.
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They've learned all the basic skills.
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And so the bandwidth to invest in somebody who has all the basic skills or has advanced
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skills and it's just like, I just need a little bit more here.
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That's different from the bandwidth to invest in mentoring someone who has no research skills
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to boot.
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And most MDs coming into a fellowship program or coming into a faculty position, they've
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literally had very little to no research training.
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So my first question is, do I have the bandwidth to be able to do this?
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And that is meeting weekly, that is in mails in between, that is feedback appropriately.
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It's a lot of investment of time.
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And so the first question is, can I do it?
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And sometimes someone's a great mentee and I want to invest in them.
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And I just realized that, oh, I may not be able to do this right now because of other
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projects that I have going on because of the number of mentees I already have.
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If you're really going to do the mentoring, especially of early career faculty who don't
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have much research training, you want to make sure you have time because the worst thing,
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and this happens to a lot of mentees who are looking at senior mentors who've been around
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for years and years and years, the reality is that they don't have the bandwidth, but
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they say, come on anyway.
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And then you have a newborn baby who really needs a lot of tender loving care and instead
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they're abandoned and then they start to have failure to thrive.
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And so this happened to me because, and in general, people are always looking at the
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big senior mentors who've been around a long time.
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And sometimes some of the best mentors are mentors who are just starting out because
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they have a lot of time and not very many people are subscribing to them.
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They have potential, they're going to go far, but you're looking at the person who actually
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doesn't have time for you.
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Now we'll talk a little bit about how their team may be able to support you even if they
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are not.
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But if you're looking for the direct one-on-one mentoring, the more senior a person is, the
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less time they probably have to spend with you.
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So the first thing I ask is, do I have bandwidth?
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Should do the intense mentoring that this person needs to become what they want to become?
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Because it's not about what I want them to become, it's about what they want to become.
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So number one, do I have bandwidth?
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My bandwidth, yes, my bandwidth.
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Number two, and this is a little bit more recent for me, the bandwidth of my team.
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Okay, so I've gotten to a place now where I don't want to take on a brand new mentee
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who has absolutely no research skills unless that person is going to come through members
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of my research team who have some skills that they can impart.
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So now what I will do is I'll say, you can come into my team and I have a senior mentor,
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a senior member of my research team, and I'll say, work with the senior member and that's
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all, and that's how you're getting the mentoring.
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So it's not that I'm not mentoring, it's just the intensity of the mentoring, the initial
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look at drafts and recommendations on how to structure writing, that's all happening
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outside of me right now.
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And by the time work gets to me, it's mature enough so that I'm investing minimal amount
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of time to be able to move the work forward.
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Okay, so that's exactly what I mean by my team bandwidth because I have to look at the
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projects that my team is working on.
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I know it takes a lot of time to do this intense mentoring and I want to know what's the quality
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of your work you're going to be mentoring in.
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Because many times people come in and they're like, I want to do a case report.
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And to be honest, I'm not down in case reports.
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I've done a lot of them, I still do them.
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But case reports don't get you as far as say original research.
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And when I look at my team's bandwidth and I say you have four original research papers
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that we're trying to get out and this person wants to come in and do a case report, you,
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my teammates, my team members can do that mentoring on their own without my input, right,
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to be able to write a case report because they've done this enough times.
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But now they're going to take away time for an original research from an original research
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manuscript which is higher in the hierarchy to spend time helping somebody write a case
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report.
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So that's why I think about, well, now if I find a newbie, a very early career person
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who doesn't have much, by the way, of research skills, I'm asking can my team support them
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in the things that I don't want to support them in or at least I don't have the bandwidth
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to support them in.
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And so you can see that number one is am I going to be the one to do it all or do I have
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a team that can help me to do it so I can do the higher level, the higher level mentoring.
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So that is why number two is really, will my team be able to support the little things
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that I may not be able to support.
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For example, the senior member of my team is able to meet with other members of my team
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a little bit more frequently.
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I meet with everybody once a week.
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I don't meet more than once a week.
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Sometimes I'll meet, like the senior member of my team, I'll meet more than once a week
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because we have other things we want to talk about outside of our group meetings.
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But if more is needed, and sometimes when you're just starting out, you need a lot more
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than just a once a week mentoring meeting.
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And that's why I want to know, can my team support the questions that are needed that
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they can easily answer that I may not have bandwidth to answer except but once a week.
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So does my team have the bandwidth?
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That's number two.
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Number three, now number one and two, as you can see, I'm starting with me.
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Can I support this new person?
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Can I support this child, this newborn, right?
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And this is not disrespecting the faculty member or the fellow.
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It's just saying you need a lot.
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Can I support what you need?
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The third thing now is the motives of the mentee.
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Okay.
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I will interview anybody who wants to be a mentee in my research program.
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And when I interview them, and I'm not telling them it's an interview, it's just a conversation,
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but I want to know why they want to get into research.
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And many times I find that people are not really interested in getting into research.
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They just need a publication with their name on it.
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It's like, hey, I'm going to be applying for a fellowship three months from now, and I
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need a publication with my name on it.
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Okay.
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That is different.
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That's not I need a research mentor.
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That's I need a publication with my name on it like yesterday.
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There's a little bit of energy of desperation that comes with that.
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I tend to avoid that.
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Like as soon as I hear people talking about, I only have six months to work with you, and
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I need a paper right away, I just know I'm not going to be a research mentor because
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it takes time to birth research.
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It takes time to do the research.
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It takes time to write up the research.
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It takes time to work through revisions.
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If you're looking from start to finish of an original research manuscript, it could
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very well be a year, and it could be longer, depending on how long it takes to do the research,
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gather the data, analyze the data, then write it up, then do the submission, wait a couple
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of months, get the first set of revisions, wait a couple of weeks, resubmit it, maybe
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get another set of, I mean, it takes time.
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So when someone shows up and they're like, I just need my name on a manuscript and I
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want to do it in three months, I know that I'm not going to be able to help them achieve
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that, and I'm not going to take them on.
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I'm not.
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So that's one group.
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That's one kind of motive where your motive doesn't align with my long-term strategy because
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I'm building a research program.
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I'm not just here to just churn out a couple of papers, and that's what I'm building.
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It's the long game.
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And if someone's here to play a very, very, very short game, I'm not able to support that.
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Okay.
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The other thing as far as motive is sometimes people are looking for a letter of recommendation
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and like, I want to be in your research program because I'm going to apply, and then I want
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your letter.
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I am happy to write letters for people.
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If I know you enough, like if we've met a couple of times, you'll send me your CV and
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I will write you a letter.
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I usually will write you a letter.
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I can do that.
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That's not, you don't need to be in my research program for me to write you a letter.
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So in my discussion, I really want to understand what does the mentee want?
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What does the mentee want?
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It really, I want to be sure that whatever their goals are, it aligns with my goals,
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the goals of my research program.
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Otherwise, I'm scattered in too many different directions.
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I'm not able to be effective.
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Focus is important.
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And so making sure that the motives of the mentee align with the motives of my program
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or align with the long-term goals of my program is absolutely critical.
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And so very early on, the minute it becomes clear that somebody is looking for short-term
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gain, I will say, I'm not the person for you.
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I won't say it so directly, but I'll say, I know another mentor who you should talk
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to because what they're looking for is a paper that's at the door or a paper that's already
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gone through revisions.
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And maybe the first author doesn't have time anymore to address it.
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That's what they're looking for.
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Because a three month turnaround is a paper that's about to be accepted.
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It's not a paper that's still being written.
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Right?
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All right.
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And that's why number four is their time horizon.
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So when people are like, I have six months, I just know that's not going to work out.
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It takes time.
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It really takes time to build skill.
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So in my research program, the longest person who's been with me has probably been with
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me for five years.
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And there's still a lot that I'm teaching.
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There's still a lot that they're learning.
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I mean, this person is outstanding.
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And if you're listening to me, you know who I'm talking about.
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You are awesome.
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Thank you so much for the skill and the excellence you bring to the research program.
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And they're still learning, like we all are learning.
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Right?
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The more I'm advancing and looking at different strategies, different analytic techniques,
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I have new collaborators.
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There's a new level of learning.
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And so it really does take time to grow.
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And so when someone's like, I only have six months, I know that they're not going to have
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enough time to learn the skills that they need to, to be successful or to even contribute
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successfully to my research program.
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So when someone says, I only have six months, that's already a no.
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If somebody has a year, hmm, I don't know.
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It depends on what they want out of the program.
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Right?
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Again, going back to what did they need?
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What are their goals?
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What's their motive?
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Because the thing is that if you're going to do original research, it really takes a
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long time from conception to doing the IRB and getting everything together, doing the
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research, collecting the data, it takes a long time.
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And so when someone only has a year, that's cutting it close.
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And maybe that they collect the data, but they're not going to be able to write it up
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or they write it up and then they're not going to be able to stay through the revisions process.
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And I have to tell you that when somebody leaves your research program, it is very hard
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to reconnect with them.
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And when we're talking about MDs, they're leaving to go back to the clinical space,
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right?
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Maybe they're starting intern year or they're starting fellowship.
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They don't have time to respond to your email saying, hey, we need those revisions because
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the deadline is coming.
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And so even a year is a little bit stretching it.
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Two years, it's like, okay, that's enough time for me to teach you basic skills.
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That's enough time for you to be able to really contribute.
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That's enough time for you to do the work it takes to be a first author on a paper.
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So two years is about, I think, a minimum, I think.
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I mean, I will do shorter.
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It depends, right?
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It depends on many things.
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All these factors come together.
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There's not one factor that necessarily drives everything.
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But I will say that anything less than a year is a no-go.
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It's not a research mentoring experience.
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It can just be a career mentoring, but it cannot be a research mentoring because there's
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really not enough time for you to grow in the skills like you need to.
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I mean, again, if you're an MD, clinician only, you've not really done much research.
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There's a lot of learning.
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If you think about your PhD colleagues who did six years for their PhD and then in between,
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they did graduate research assistantships and then they also did postdoc number one
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and postdoc number two.
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And then they're like, I still need training.
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You recognize how anemic, relatively speaking, an MD's training is relative to the PhD researcher.
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So there's a lot to learn and it really does take time to build skill.
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And so when people have a time horizon that's too short to build skill and contribute meaningfully,
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I'm not going to consider them as a first pick for mentee.
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I would have done it a longer time ago, but now with the priorities of the program and
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with how busy we are, I would consider that very carefully.
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All right, so the time horizon, that's number four.
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Number five is their level of understanding of what it takes.
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Now this is a little bit of borrowing from a couple of the other points I've said.
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When somebody shows up to me and says, I have six months and I want to get a paper in six
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months and then I'll be done, I know they don't understand what it takes.
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I know they don't have any idea of how much is involved in the investment in really growing
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in research.
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And so I want to get a sense of how much they understand.
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I want to get a sense of how much they understand how writing is important to the process.
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I want to get a sense of how much I understand that they know what's involved.
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They know the level of excellence that's needed.
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I mean, sometimes I've had people just throw words together and send me a document and
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I think, wait a minute, this is less than excellent.
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No way.
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So I want to know.
387
00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,680
And I don't know, I don't know them, but I'm evaluating.
388
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:15,460
I'm evaluating the emails that they send me, the completeness of their sentences, how well
389
00:21:15,460 --> 00:21:17,000
do they write?
390
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:21,080
We might do a small project together just to start, just for me to test the waters to
391
00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:24,160
say, okay, well, can we do this?
392
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,560
But again, I want to have a sense of how committed is this person?
393
00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,560
Do they understand the level of commitment it takes?
394
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,000
I think people think sometimes that research is easy.
395
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,440
It's like, oh, thank God it's not clinical work.
396
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:37,000
It'll be easy.
397
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:38,000
It's not easy.
398
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:39,080
It's hard work.
399
00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:40,160
And it takes time.
400
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:41,160
It takes commitment.
401
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:42,800
It takes excellence.
402
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:48,640
I want to know that people understand what kind of commitment is needed to advance research.
403
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:52,720
If I don't have a sense that they have a sense, I'm not going to move forward with a mentoring
404
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:53,720
relationship.
405
00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:54,720
All right.
406
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:59,560
Number seven is how much time they have to do the work.
407
00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:01,080
Oh, this is a big one.
408
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:06,880
And this is one that has stumped me a couple of times.
409
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:08,240
Clinical people are busy people.
410
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:13,200
And I say that as someone who's fully, well, used to be fully clinical, but I totally understand
411
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,200
how much it takes to take care of patients.
412
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:21,440
So I can say with certainty that most MDs don't have time to do research, period.
413
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:25,600
Now many MDs are trying to do research at nights or on weekends.
414
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:27,040
And I want to say I salute you.
415
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:28,040
I commend you.
416
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:29,300
It is how I started.
417
00:22:29,300 --> 00:22:31,280
It's how many people start.
418
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:35,640
But it can only be a starting place where you ultimately need to expand the time that
419
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:40,280
you have for research beyond just your night and weekends hours, because in reality, you
420
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:41,840
are only human.
421
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,020
Maybe you can pull an all-nighter this week.
422
00:22:44,020 --> 00:22:48,940
Maybe you can binge right through your weekend this weekend, but it's not sustainable.
423
00:22:48,940 --> 00:22:51,560
And research is about sustainability.
424
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:53,760
It is about long-term sustainability.
425
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:58,880
And if for whatever reason, it doesn't look as if you have time to do the research.
426
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:03,400
It doesn't look as if there's any space for you in between your 300 clinics.
427
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:04,840
I'm being facetious.
428
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:09,280
In between three clinics that you're doing the week, if you're constantly kind of like
429
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,880
in the cycle of, oh gosh, I haven't finished closing my charts.
430
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,200
When I finish closing my charts, I'll be able to do the work.
431
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,200
I know that you don't have time to do the work.
432
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,000
I know I'm going to be chasing you down.
433
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:21,560
Let me give you an example.
434
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:25,840
I had a recent manuscript resubmission that needed to be done with mentees that I had
435
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:27,560
worked with on this manuscript.
436
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:32,480
And at the time that the revisions came back, they didn't have time.
437
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,480
So guess who ended up doing all the revisions?
438
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:36,720
Me.
439
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:38,640
And you know, I know how to write.
440
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:45,120
I'm not afraid to write, but it takes a lot to do the work of revising.
441
00:23:45,120 --> 00:23:49,320
And part of being a mentee in my program is to learn to do that.
442
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:50,320
Right?
443
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:54,280
So it's a learning opportunity for you to a greater extent than it is for me.
444
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,000
So I want you to do that work.
445
00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:00,560
If you don't even have time to do it, then I have to make the investment to do that work.
446
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:05,300
This is a paper I only took on because I knew it would be a benefit to you.
447
00:24:05,300 --> 00:24:07,200
And now I'm doing all the work.
448
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:12,080
I don't want to do that because what it means is that while I'm doing all the work of revising
449
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:17,120
and, and you know, like going line by line through the reviewer comments, I'm not writing
450
00:24:17,120 --> 00:24:20,240
the grant that funds the rest of my research program.
451
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:22,760
Do you see the opportunity cost?
452
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,140
It's not that I don't want to make the big investments.
453
00:24:25,140 --> 00:24:29,840
It's just that every time I have to pick up the slack for someone who didn't do the work
454
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:34,840
that they were supposed to because they were too busy, it means that I leave the bigger
455
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:38,760
things that other people can't do for me to do the things that people should be able to
456
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:42,120
do as part of their work within the research program.
457
00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:43,400
Okay.
458
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:47,160
So I've talked about seven things and now that I'm listening to myself, I'm like, is
459
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:48,160
that tough?
460
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,820
That sounds a little bit tough, but I tell you, it's the reality.
461
00:24:51,820 --> 00:24:56,960
It's the reality of over time, you start to figure out that, wow, time, time has boundaries.
462
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:01,560
And if you're going to do the things you want to do well, you have to choose what are the
463
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:03,120
things only I can do?
464
00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:05,880
What are the things others can do for me?
465
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:10,040
And so that's why the mentee mentoring relationship is a two-way relationship.
466
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,320
It doesn't mean I'm asking my mentees to pay me back.
467
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:17,640
It just means it's like, while you're growing, you're going to move the research program
468
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:22,640
forward and you're going to free up my time so that I can do the things that continue
469
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,200
to move the research program forward.
470
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,440
That's how you are helping me.
471
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,160
You're helping me because you're the person who first of all went through all the reviewer
472
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:36,600
comments, you wrote comment one, okay, this is how we're going to respond.
473
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,180
You did the first pass.
474
00:25:38,180 --> 00:25:42,280
So when I look at it, I'm not now saying, oh, wait a minute, what did the reviewer say
475
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:43,280
again?
476
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:44,600
Where in the manuscript is it?
477
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:46,200
You've done all that for me.
478
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:47,960
That saves me time.
479
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:53,440
And so I can help you grow in that way while, and while you're working on it, I'm doing
480
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:54,440
something else.
481
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:55,880
So there's that mutual benefit.
482
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,400
It's not that I need you to do things for me.
483
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:02,840
It's that in the process of your learning, you're taking work off my plate that I don't
484
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:04,780
have to do because you're doing it.
485
00:26:04,780 --> 00:26:09,280
And in reality, it takes you longer probably than it takes me to do it, but that's part
486
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:11,080
of your learning.
487
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:16,520
And when you come back, then there's a back and forth of me helping you take it to the
488
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:17,840
next level.
489
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,560
But if I have to come in and step in and do the work that you're supposed to do, then
490
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:23,840
it's no longer a benefit to me.
491
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:25,680
Now it's a drag.
492
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:27,280
All right.
493
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:31,160
So seven things, number one, my bandwidth, number two, the bandwidth of my team, number
494
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:35,560
three, the motives of the mentee, number four, their time horizon, number five, their level
495
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:39,400
of understanding of what it takes, number six, whether this relationship will help them
496
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:43,200
or not, number seven, how much time they actually have to do the work.
497
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:44,200
All right.
498
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,200
I hope this has been helpful to you.
499
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:51,680
I'd love to hear about you as you start to mentor or you probably are a seasoned mentor.
500
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,000
What are some things you consider as you're thinking about whether you take on a mentee
501
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:56,600
or not?
502
00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,480
And I want to say that if somebody doesn't ask, invite you to be a mentee in their research
503
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:05,320
program, don't lose heart over it, but think about what you really, really need, what your
504
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:10,360
goals are and whether this is the research team that will serve you and be explicit about
505
00:27:10,360 --> 00:27:15,920
what you want, because then it's important if your goals do not align with the goals
506
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:20,460
of the would be mentor, you want to not be in that relationship.
507
00:27:20,460 --> 00:27:25,800
And so it can be a benefit to you if a mentor says, no, thank you, because already it just
508
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,880
cuts out a lot of the pain and suffering that could happen with not having alignment.
509
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,640
And so alignment is important for you.
510
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,280
And so don't feel bad if a mentor doesn't choose you.
511
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,480
It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you.
512
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,440
It just means that the mentor does not see alignment in one way or the other.
513
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:42,440
All right.
514
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,240
It's been a pleasure talking with you again.
515
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:48,080
I'm always in the market to coach if you're looking for a coach.
516
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:52,880
And if not, I invite you to please share this episode with someone who's going to benefit
517
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:53,880
from it.
518
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:54,880
All right.
519
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:55,880
It's been a pleasure talking with you today.
520
00:27:55,880 --> 00:28:00,240
I look forward to talking with you again next time on the Clinician Researcher Podcast.
521
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:01,440
Have a great evening.
522
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:11,080
Have a great day.
523
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:16,440
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast, where academic
524
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:21,760
clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they
525
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:23,240
have a mentor.
526
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:29,360
If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.
527
00:28:29,360 --> 00:28:31,080
Someone else needs to hear it.
528
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:35,140
So take a minute right now and share it.
529
00:28:35,140 --> 00:28:40,600
As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation
530
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:53,480
of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.
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