Navigating the circuitous path with a compass - Dr. Bimpe Adesina

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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills

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to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.

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When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find

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that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research

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program.

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Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.

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However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.

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For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians

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the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.

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Hello everybody.

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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast.

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I'm your host, Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is a pleasure to be here speaking to you today.

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Thank you for listening.

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Today, I am super, super excited to have with me on the show, a really special guest, Dr.

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A. Bimpe Adesina, and she's going to tell you how to say her name for real, but I'm

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excited to have her here.

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She's a fellow clinician researcher who's got a lot of great things to share with us

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today.

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I'm just going to step back and allow her to introduce herself.

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Hi, everyone.

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Thank you so much for inviting me to your podcast.

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I'm very excited to be here.

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I feel very honored, actually, to be asked.

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So I'm Bimpe Adesina, and I am an assistant professor at the University of California

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in Davis, but just actually in Sacramento, California.

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And I've been there now.

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This is my third year as a UC Davis faculty, but overall, my sixth year as an assistant

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professor, I started at the University of Washington in 2017.

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So it's been quite a journey.

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And you know, not, you know, these things happen organically sometimes, but not in necessarily

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anticipation of this meeting today.

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But I've had to be reflecting on my journey to where I am right now.

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And it's crazy.

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If anybody told me, you know, eight, nine, 10 years ago that this is where I would be,

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I would have laughed in their face.

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But it just goes to show that sometimes, you know, we have this passion, we have this drive.

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There are many things that come along the way as barriers and sometimes make you doubt

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yourself.

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But you know, I'm sure as this conversation progresses, I can share a little bit of my

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story and how I navigated some of those things or how I'm still navigating some of those

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things till now.

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Or sure, Benkwi, thank you for bringing that up.

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And you went there right away.

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But you know, it's great because what you're sharing is just that there's a story to this

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journey and there's a journey that's already in progress.

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So we're meeting you kind of in the middle of that journey.

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And there's just so far that you've come.

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And so I do want to break from our protocol and ask you if you would to share a little

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bit of that journey and why that switch was needed at the point at which you made it.

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Yeah.

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So like I said, I was doing a little bit of reflecting, just thinking about, you know,

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who I am as a person, who I am as a scholar, and you know, who do I see myself as just,

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you know, just globally, right?

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And so, you know, my journey, I grew up in Nigeria, my journey, as early as I can remember,

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maybe eight or nine years old, I knew I was going to do medicine.

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I just knew I didn't, there weren't any doctors in my immediate family.

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Maybe I had some uncle and maybe a cousin or something that were in medicine, but we

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weren't like we weren't in my immediate steer, you know.

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And so I just I was very curious as a child.

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I was very fascinated by science and wanting to learn how things work, not in a mechanistic

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way, but I was just very curious about how does, you know, how exactly does a plant grow

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and how does an insect move and, you know, how do bodies work?

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And so I think I knew from around eight or nine that I was going to do medicine.

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I just knew.

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And I think one of the things that was very instrumental for me is that in my family,

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there weren't any limits to what you could achieve.

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I don't know if that's typical for Nigerian family, but my family was like that.

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You know, I would say to my parents who are not in medicine at all, I would say to them,

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I want to be a doctor.

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And they're like, oh, great.

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That's it.

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They wouldn't like put any like clauses around it or, oh, you have to do this and you have

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to do that.

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It wasn't at least not that I remember.

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Maybe I'm looking back with rose tinted glasses, but I remember very specifically, they were

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not phased one way or another.

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When I said I wanted to do medicine, they were just like, okay, that's awesome.

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You know, that's helped me.

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I actually think that helped, you know, because I was just very free to explore what I wanted

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to be.

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There wasn't any pressure of you must do this or you must do that.

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I mean, I think a lot of families, you know, where I grew up, a lot of families, you know,

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they're like, well, you should be a lawyer or a doctor or an engineer.

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My family was different.

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I don't know.

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I don't know exactly how to describe it, but I just, I just knew when I told them and they

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were supported in as hands off way as possible.

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And you know, I think that just shaped my approach to so many things because when I

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moved after high school, when I moved to the United States for college, I, you know, I

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was only 16 or 17, but I was pretty independent and I had been independent for a long time.

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So I was just pretty independent.

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I was pretty driven.

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I was pretty independent and maybe because I'm an oldest, I'm the oldest daughter.

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I just knew that, you know, I needed to get this work done and I needed to do it well

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because I needed to set an example.

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I don't know whether that was good or bad, but it was just something for me where medicine

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was always my plan and it didn't matter what it was that I was doing.

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I always knew what that end goal was.

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So even when I in college decided to be a chemistry major, which I absolutely loved

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because I loved chemistry, everybody said, but nobody who wants to do medicine will do

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chemistry because you'll just end up in a lab, but it didn't, how should I put it?

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I felt that pressure.

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I won't lie and say I didn't feel the pressure of like, oh, maybe I should do biochem or

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I should do biology or microbiology or something more traditional, but I just, I knew I needed

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to stay true to myself and do what I really enjoyed and what I excelled at.

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And for me at that time, in that phase in my life, it was chemistry.

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And so I did that.

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You know, I got my bachelor's in chemistry at the University of California in Berkeley.

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I loved it.

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I loved it.

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I loved everything about it.

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Maybe not everything.

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I didn't like being in the lab.

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So I knew I wasn't, you know, cause I always knew I was going to do medicine, but I was

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like, this is just, I don't know how to put it.

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It was like a detour, so to speak, right?

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Being in the lab, you know, doing all these experiments.

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I'm thankful for it because it just, it taught me a lot of discipline, which at the time

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I didn't think it was going to be instrumental or important in my life as a clinical researcher.

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I didn't even know I was going to be a clinical researcher at the time.

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I just knew I was going to be a physician, but I didn't know what type.

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And I didn't know why for me in my college years, it was really important for me to learn

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chemistry.

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I really don't know, but you know, it gave me my first job out of college.

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I worked in industry for a couple of years.

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I worked as an analytical chemist.

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And yeah, it's very interesting.

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It came up a lot when I was in the med school.

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You're like, what?

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That's totally untraditional.

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But I loved it.

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I loved being in the lab.

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It helped me save up money for medical school because at this point I was sort of fending

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for myself for different circumstances, but it was very important for me to have that

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freedom to, you know, in that season in my life, to have that freedom to pursue my passion,

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which at the time was being in the lab.

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And even my interesting, when I interviewed for my job, I was not, I guess, worldly and

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wise enough to know not to say, oh, I want to do medicine when I'm clearly interviewing

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for an industry job.

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So I said to them, basically this is like a short term thing for me.

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I was open and honest about that.

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I don't know if I shouldn't have been, but I was open and honest about it.

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And I said, this is a short term thing.

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I want to work in the lab.

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I really love it.

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I love the analytical side of chemistry.

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I love designing experiments.

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I love the idea and I'm working in that sort of, at the time it was a pharmaceutical company,

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but I was in the lab.

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I love that aspect of my life.

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I was really interested in that.

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But I always, always knew I was going to do medicine.

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So I told my prospective bosses, I'm like, yeah, this is great, but I actually want to

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go to medical school in a few years.

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I didn't get that first job.

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In fact, I interviewed for a series of jobs at that time and I didn't get the job.

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And then the same people that I interviewed with right after graduating or right before

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I graduated from college, they circled back to me like six, seven months later.

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And they're like, we really want to hire you.

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You made such an impression on your interview.

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And even though we know this is short term, maybe we might change your mind or whatever.

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I don't know.

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So it ended up working out just fine.

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So I guess lesson number one is oftentimes we might get advice about how things should

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be, how things should be done, how we should do things.

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And it just doesn't sit right.

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And I just wanted to put it out there that it wasn't always easy.

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It was hard not to have a job for six, seven months.

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I'm trying to fend for myself, but it wasn't easy.

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But I kind of stuck.

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I was true to what I wanted to do.

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And I had a lot of self-doubt.

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I won't lie.

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I had a lot of self-doubt.

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Am I doing this right?

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Will I get into medical school?

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So on and so forth, blah, blah, blah.

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With my background being completely different from any other person that I knew.

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And I'm 100% sure there are many other people who go a different route to get to medicine.

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But I just kept thinking, am I making a mistake?

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Should I have done biology?

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But it didn't sit right with me.

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It didn't come natural to me.

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What came natural was chemistry.

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And I pursued it.

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And I pursued it up to the point where I knew, OK, I'm done with this now.

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Let me move on.

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So I don't know if that fully answered your question.

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But for me, my path, I always say this word because I love the word.

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It's a cuetus.

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It's just been all over.

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But my compass was always set.

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It was always set, do, people say do north or whatever.

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But I was like, do medicine.

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That's where my compass was.

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And how I got there, the journey was to cuetus.

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But it was true to me.

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And so I appreciate all the twists and turns on the road.

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I think it made me a better clinical researcher because of that.

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Sure, wow.

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Thank you for sharing the story, Binggui.

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I've known you for a few years.

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And I've never heard the story.

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Thank you.

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Thank you for sharing it.

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And you know what's interesting?

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You call it the cuetus.

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But the truth is, you kind of had like a north star.

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Like you knew where you were going.

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And even when you were kind of hearing in other directions, you're like, yeah,

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I'm going this direction right now.

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But I'm coming back to this thing, which is really incredible.

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And it almost, it sounds like even with the story of you, of how you grew up,

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it was like your parents just let you be.

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And you're like, whatever you want to be.

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We were very hands off.

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They were very hands off.

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I don't know if it's maybe just my family.

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I don't really know.

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But I actually think it was very good because it made us,

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my siblings and I were very independent.

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We don't necessarily seek permission to do things.

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But I do think, okay, so I do think maybe sometimes our mother's anxiety seeps in.

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If she thinks, okay, I've let you do your own thing now for quite a while.

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You should be doing this.

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But as far as I can remember, I've kind of just been left alone,

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not alone in a bad way, but kind of like you have the ability to do it.

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So go ahead and do it.

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Wow.

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I'll hold you back.

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Wow.

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Now that's incredible.

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Because what I hear you saying is that from a very early age,

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you've been leading yourself.

237
00:12:48,560 --> 00:12:50,320
You've been leading your career.

238
00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:54,560
And so now you're going to tell us the journey of how you became a clinician researcher.

239
00:12:54,560 --> 00:12:55,920
I'm interested to hear.

240
00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:59,600
But just you've already established that you lead your own career,

241
00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,320
which is incredible, which is awesome.

242
00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:06,560
So now tell me, at what point did you now decide that,

243
00:13:06,560 --> 00:13:11,120
okay, the next thing that you are going to do is become a clinician researcher?

244
00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:12,080
How did that come about?

245
00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:17,040
So I kind of backed into becoming a clinical researcher or clinician researcher.

246
00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,800
I was in medical school at UCSF at the time.

247
00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:27,120
And I think I was in my second year, maybe, maybe third going on fourth year.

248
00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:29,760
I can't remember exactly second or third year thereabouts.

249
00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:33,200
And I, I was in my second year.

250
00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:34,000
That's what right.

251
00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:39,680
And I, we had the opportunity to do research in the break between first and second year.

252
00:13:40,560 --> 00:13:45,760
And I, like I said, I'm from Nigeria, so I really wanted to do something in Nigeria.

253
00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:52,000
At the time I had started developing a love for sickle cell disease for a variety of reasons.

254
00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:53,920
But, you know, I grew up in Nigeria.

255
00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:57,600
So there were a lot of people that I knew in my life personally,

256
00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,480
and outside of my personal life were affected by the disease.

257
00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:02,320
And I was just really intrigued.

258
00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:04,800
I felt like there was so much about it that I didn't understand.

259
00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:10,400
And I had a lot of, you know, hearsay knowledge, but I didn't have a lot of in-depth knowledge.

260
00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:14,160
And so I think I was on holiday maybe the year before,

261
00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:19,280
and it had come up in conversation that, oh, there was this sort of movement in Nigeria

262
00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:27,760
to sort of make it mandatory to do sickle cell treat or sickle cell testing before marriage,

263
00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:31,280
because it was such a high prevalence of sickle cell treat in Nigeria.

264
00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:34,800
And as a result, a high incidence of sickle cell disease.

265
00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,600
And so I just, first of all, I was kind of like astounded by that.

266
00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:39,280
Like you could actually make people.

267
00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:42,240
First of all, I didn't even know people weren't like,

268
00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:46,160
I didn't realize people were not often aware of their sickle cell street treat status.

269
00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:53,040
And I just remember thinking to myself, huh, well, there's a lot of stigma around this disease

270
00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,240
because a lot of people don't understand what, myself included,

271
00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:58,480
don't understand what sickle cell disease is.

272
00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:04,800
And I can understand why people would hide that from their potential partners, right,

273
00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:06,560
because of the stigma.

274
00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:08,480
But that's what I thought.

275
00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:10,240
So I asked myself this question.

276
00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:14,800
Why do people who know they have sickle cell treat or may not even be aware,

277
00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:19,440
but when they become aware, why do they hide that away from potential partners?

278
00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:22,400
Is it because they're afraid of stigma?

279
00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:26,720
Is it because they don't really understand what sickle cell treat status means?

280
00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,760
Is it because they don't understand what sickle cell disease means?

281
00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,960
Or is it because they think, you know, even if I have sickle trait

282
00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:37,200
and my partner has sickle trait, we're not going to have a child with sickle cell disease?

283
00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:42,480
I asked myself these series of questions and I pondered about it over the summer.

284
00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:47,440
And then when the opportunity came to do global health research elective,

285
00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:54,480
I knew I was going back to Nigeria and I said, OK, well, I'm going to apply for this opportunity

286
00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:56,720
to give you like a travel stipend or whatever.

287
00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:03,600
And I'm going to design a simple questionnaire about sickle cell treat status and concerns

288
00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:07,440
about it, stigma, knowledge, so on and so forth. I literally wrote this out.

289
00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:14,320
No guidance, no mentorship. I just I was just genuinely curious.

290
00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:18,480
I wrote it out. I submitted it as a proposal as a second year medical student.

291
00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:20,640
I got some funding to travel back home.

292
00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:26,560
I worked my connections there to get myself into Lagos University Teaching Hospital.

293
00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:32,400
And I just proceeded to do a summer research project on this topic.

294
00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:34,800
That I found really fascinating and interesting.

295
00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:37,680
And that's where I was bitten by the bug of research.

296
00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,640
I just I don't know.

297
00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:43,600
I don't know what I was thinking at the time.

298
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:46,320
But sometimes what you don't know is actually helpful, right?

299
00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:51,600
Because I didn't really know what does it entail to, you know, come up with a concept,

300
00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:56,720
actually implement that study and see it to completion.

301
00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:01,040
If perhaps if I had known all that it would entail, I would have been discouraged.

302
00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,600
But I didn't know. So I suppose my naivety.

303
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,360
But yeah, my curiosity was what launched me on this path.

304
00:17:07,360 --> 00:17:09,360
And I have lived back ever since.

305
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,080
Wow. What a great story.

306
00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:14,080
And you did it just on your own.

307
00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:16,080
You didn't even have a mentor to show you the way.

308
00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:18,080
Not at that point.

309
00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:20,080
No, not at that point, no.

310
00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:25,120
So then moving on from that story, at what point were you finally like,

311
00:17:25,120 --> 00:17:27,120
I'm a clinician researcher.

312
00:17:27,120 --> 00:17:29,120
This is who I am.

313
00:17:29,120 --> 00:17:31,120
Yeah.

314
00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:34,800
Gosh, I think that didn't come for several more years,

315
00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:40,880
probably when I was towards the end of my residency, I think.

316
00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:44,640
So this is fast forward, you know, 2011, thereabouts.

317
00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:47,920
And this incident that I talked to you about with doing the

318
00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:52,080
Wibble Health research back in Nigeria, that was probably 2005, 2006.

319
00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:56,720
So, you know, six, seven years down the line, or five, six years down the line, actually.

320
00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:02,800
And so I just, I kind of, you know, you're told a certain thing.

321
00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:04,800
Oh, you should be a clinician.

322
00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:06,240
You should be a primary care doctor.

323
00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:08,000
You should be a family doctor.

324
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,520
You should be, you know, I felt like people were always telling me what I should do.

325
00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,760
But deep in my heart, I'm like, no, I want to continue to ask questions

326
00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,640
about things that I found really interesting.

327
00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:22,160
I, at that point, I knew I was going to do something in sickle cell.

328
00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,120
I didn't know specifically what I was going to do, but I knew I was going to do something

329
00:18:25,120 --> 00:18:31,040
in sickle cell, and I had said that to everybody who, who bothers to ask me, you know?

330
00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:33,840
And so I said, no, I don't, I don't want to be a clinician.

331
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,440
I actually want to continue down this path of asking questions

332
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:39,520
and trying to figure out a way to answer the questions.

333
00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,640
I just, I found that to be very, how should I put it?

334
00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:50,960
It was just very, it kind of just gave me this feeling inside of, you know, what can I learn?

335
00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:53,520
And how do I learn?

336
00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:59,280
And in addition to that, when I do answer these questions that I think are very important,

337
00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:01,600
how do I share that with others?

338
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:05,120
You know, because at the core of it, and I was reading through my journal,

339
00:19:05,120 --> 00:19:07,200
at the core of it, you know, I'm a learner.

340
00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,760
I think I've always been a lifelong learner.

341
00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:14,800
And, you know, nothing excites me more than learning about a topic that I'm fascinated by.

342
00:19:15,360 --> 00:19:18,480
And then turning that around and, you know, I've learned about it.

343
00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:19,920
How do I share it with others?

344
00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:21,120
So teach, right?

345
00:19:21,120 --> 00:19:27,520
So I think it didn't sink in until probably third year residency, possibly first year fellowship.

346
00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:34,640
I miss all the noise of everything that's happening around all that sort of clinical demand

347
00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:39,280
and the long hours and the, you know, just the really brutal schedule.

348
00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:44,640
I just never let go of that furious person that I was when I was in medical school.

349
00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:47,200
And I kept saying, I want to do this.

350
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:47,920
I want to do this.

351
00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:50,160
And I can't tell you how many people told me,

352
00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:52,800
but that's not in the cards for you.

353
00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,600
You're starting too far behind.

354
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:57,440
You know, a lot of your colleagues who want to do this,

355
00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,240
they've already sort of enmeshed themselves in research groups.

356
00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:05,040
And, you know, maybe part of my upbringing, part of my experience, I just thought,

357
00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:09,200
well, yeah, maybe they've had a head start.

358
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:11,520
But there's something we would say in my family all the time.

359
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:13,040
My parents would say it to us all the time.

360
00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,720
It really translates to, they don't have two heads, right?

361
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:17,920
They don't have two heads.

362
00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:21,520
Meaning the people who are accomplishing these things,

363
00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,800
they don't have anything that you don't have, right?

364
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,320
I don't know if my parents knew that that's how we interpreted it,

365
00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:29,520
but that's how I interpreted it.

366
00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,640
So I could hear my mom and my dad's voice in the back of my head.

367
00:20:33,120 --> 00:20:34,240
They don't have two heads.

368
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:36,720
They don't have two heads, you know, figure out how they did it

369
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,680
and figure out how you can get to that stage, you know?

370
00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:43,440
And so I think when I was a second year fellow,

371
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:47,120
and the reality was sinking in of, OK, if you're going to do a research,

372
00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:50,240
you're going to have a research career, you need to start now.

373
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:52,800
You know, I think there was a little bit of urgency as well.

374
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,160
And a lot of people said it couldn't be done.

375
00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,760
A lot of people, you know, kindly and unfriendly would say,

376
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:00,800
this is not for you.

377
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:02,400
It's too late.

378
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:03,200
You haven't done this.

379
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:03,920
You haven't done that.

380
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:08,800
A lot of, you know, you haven't, you know, checked off X, Y, and Z box.

381
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:14,160
But I knew my potential and I knew my tenacity.

382
00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:18,160
And even when I would sometimes have a lot of doubts,

383
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:23,600
I would just always sort of lay back in my mind, you don't have two heads.

384
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,400
If they figured it out, I can do the same, you know,

385
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,000
and I just kind of took it from there.

386
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:30,180
Wow.

387
00:21:30,180 --> 00:21:33,920
I mean, it just sounds like you just had such a strong foundation

388
00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:35,600
of believing in yourself.

389
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,520
And so that when people told you that you couldn't, you just didn't take their word for it.

390
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:40,640
I didn't.

391
00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:41,360
I didn't.

392
00:21:41,360 --> 00:21:49,680
Sometimes I would let their voices or these voices overpowered my voice or my inner voice.

393
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:54,880
But if I could just remove myself sometimes from that area of noise,

394
00:21:54,880 --> 00:22:02,720
and I would dare say negativity, I could listen to myself and listen to the voice of my parents

395
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:08,960
and the voice of other people who had like, you know, supported me throughout the years,

396
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:13,440
you know, my siblings, my parents, other people in my family, other people in my sphere, you know.

397
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:21,680
And I just had this deep belief that I wanted to do more, not what was expected,

398
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,520
but I really wanted to do what I wanted to do, what I was interested in doing.

399
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:30,720
And if I just let myself be quiet and hear those voices, the supporting voices,

400
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:32,960
it would eventually drown out the negative ones.

401
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,200
It wasn't easy. I won't lie. It wasn't easy.

402
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:39,040
There were many, many sacrifices along the way.

403
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,440
My son was just a baby at the time.

404
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:48,000
And I can't tell you how many times, you know, I would put him to sleep late at night

405
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:49,360
and then start working.

406
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:55,200
Or, you know, how many times I would have to wake up very early in the morning,

407
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,200
get some work done before he wakes up.

408
00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:01,040
And, you know, most parents know what I'm talking about.

409
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:05,200
And it was a lot of sacrifices, a lot of sacrifices along the way.

410
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:13,520
But I'm thankful because I think for me, at the times when I was most doubtful of myself,

411
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:17,600
other people would be that encouraging voice to me.

412
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,840
And at the times when other people were like, oh, you can't do it, you can't do it,

413
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,400
then I would be that encouraging voice for myself.

414
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:29,200
But, you know, I just learned along the way that, for me at least,

415
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,400
like I learned along the way that I know what I want.

416
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,840
I'm going to learn how to achieve it or accomplish it.

417
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,400
And I'm going to work hard to accomplish it.

418
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,400
Learn to cut your losses along the way, I guess.

419
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,720
I can give a little bit more detailed example of that.

420
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:47,360
But yeah, I just felt very, I felt very, how should I put it?

421
00:23:47,360 --> 00:23:49,920
I'm a very young age. I just felt like, you know, if I want to do something,

422
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:51,600
I need to learn how to do it.

423
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,600
And at least try. If it doesn't work out, it's not because I didn't try.

424
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:57,600
So, yeah.

425
00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:59,200
No, this is really awesome.

426
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:03,600
I mean, I guess it's almost like, I'm like, it's no small wonder you succeeded.

427
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,600
Oh, goodness. You've never let anybody stop you.

428
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:09,600
So awesome.

429
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:11,600
Well, let me ask, though.

430
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:15,600
So you described some challenges, actually, along the way.

431
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:19,600
And I would ask you, what was the challenge?

432
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:27,600
I want to ask you, what was the single biggest challenge that you had to overcome in this journey?

433
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,600
Single biggest challenge I had to overcome in this journey.

434
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:33,600
I hope it's not cliche.

435
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:35,600
With self-doubt. Self-doubt.

436
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:39,600
I was riddled with self-doubt.

437
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:43,600
I was riddled with, you know, do I really have what it takes?

438
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:45,600
Can I really do this?

439
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:47,600
This comes up from time to time, even now.

440
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,600
Even though when I look back, I've accomplished a lot.

441
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,600
But, you know, imposter syndrome is real.

442
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:55,600
Self-doubt is real.

443
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:57,600
Perfectionism is real.

444
00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,600
And it's a big struggle.

445
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,600
I went back and I looked at something that I wrote to myself about almost two years ago now.

446
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:11,600
And I, you know, without explaining the context, I just wrote this to myself.

447
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:13,600
And I'll just read it out to you.

448
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:17,600
I'm just giving a little bit of an example of some of the things I was talking about in this context.

449
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:25,600
What I said here, amidst the crucible of pressure, the facade of perfectionism started to crack.

450
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:30,600
And I knew I needed help if I wanted to survive and thrive in this world.

451
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,600
I was writing to myself what my experience was in my first year of academia.

452
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:44,600
And I was really, really struggling with self-doubt and imposter syndrome and thinking I landed on my job by mistake.

453
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:53,600
I didn't do anything to deserve this position, even though I worked my butt off all these years to get to where I was.

454
00:25:53,600 --> 00:26:02,600
And I had this perfectionism thing that I was trying to project to the world around me at the time, even though I was really struggling.

455
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,600
And at some point, I had to learn to let that go.

456
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:12,600
I had to learn to say, no, I can't do, I can't be everything to everyone.

457
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,600
I have to prioritize what's important to myself.

458
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:22,600
Sometimes I have to let people know that, you know, yeah, I don't want to.

459
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:28,600
I don't want to write this grant or I don't want to write this paper or I don't want to give this talk.

460
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,600
It's just not the right thing for me at this time.

461
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:50,600
And so one of the things that I really struggled with was people will, I don't know how to put this, but, you know, oftentimes people will say, oh, I remember, you know, when I first started my first faculty job, I was told, oh, you have to write a K in your first year.

462
00:26:50,600 --> 00:27:01,600
Now I knew deep in my heart that, yeah, writing a K wasn't my future, but it wasn't realistic in my first year as a faculty member. Like, what was I going to write about? You know what I mean?

463
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:11,600
And people read me all kinds of advice. They're like, oh, a K is not a big deal. You just write it. And I'm like, really? You just like wake up a warning, Mr. Write a K. That didn't sound right to me.

464
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:22,600
I put so much pressure on myself and I was just filling myself to write a grant that I knew I was not ready for. Like I was not ready, you know?

465
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:35,600
And even though I kept saying that I'm not ready, I need to get this, people said, oh, you're just procrastinating or you are overthinking it. Just write it and just check it off, you know?

466
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:45,600
And so I really, really, you know, I basically burnt the candle on both ends trying to write a K that deep down I knew I wasn't ready to do.

467
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:57,600
And so when I didn't get the K, I was actually kind of relieved. I was just like, oh, you know, I didn't, what I put forth was not what I wanted.

468
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:07,600
You know what I mean? It wasn't, it wasn't maybe a little bit of my perfectionism was seeping in, but I knew that it wasn't a strong application or at least it wasn't as strong as I would like it to be.

469
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:21,600
And so some of the some of the real things that I struggled with were expectations of others, even though deep down I knew those expectations were unrealistic or the timing was off or it just wasn't what I wanted.

470
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:39,600
I would still pursue it because I was trying to please others and it took me a few years, probably two or three years of trying to do this and literally dying inside from sheer exhaustion and not having any time whatsoever to rest and rejuvenate.

471
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:52,600
And it took me about two or three years. Yeah, sorry, 2017. I think it wasn't until 2019 and I'm like, I can't sustain this. I really have to let the cracks show so people can know that, you know, I'm a human being too.

472
00:28:52,600 --> 00:29:07,600
I'm a wife, I'm a mom, I'm an assistant professor, but I'm also all these things. And these things that my family is much more important to me than some grants that I knew wasn't just the right time for me.

473
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:22,600
And so I remember very well. This was June, I think 2018 when I was attempting to submit my first K, and I didn't make the deadline, because it was just so overwhelming it was just so overwhelming and I told the administrative assistant at the time I told them,

474
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:30,600
I'm not, I'm not submitting this cycle. And my division chief called me she's like, what, what we already talked about it and why you're supposed to do this.

475
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:46,600
And I just told her, No, I remember seeing it I was very respectful I just said no, the timing is not right. And I just felt so liberated in saying that, and I remember very very well.

476
00:29:46,600 --> 00:30:00,600
I was kind of like just on my own, or not on my own I guess but I just said okay well I didn't make this deadline I'm just going to let it go, because I didn't make this deadline I didn't fulfill somebody else's expectation, and I had no trouble when my division

477
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:13,600
chief called me I had no trouble telling her. No, this was not appropriate this is not the timeline for me. And I remember very well because that same week or weekend, one of my best friends from high school was getting married.

478
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:18,600
And I went to that wedding, and I was so happy.

479
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:34,600
I was so happy and so relieved, because this awful grants that I was being forced to write was I had just told them, No, I'm not going to write this grant at this time I'm not going to submit a half baked idea.

480
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:51,600
This is not the right time, you know, and I just remember having the best time at that wedding. I had let go of these unrealistic expectations. So I do think, you know, oftentimes the, you know, yeah, I really really really struggle and I continue to struggle

481
00:30:51,600 --> 00:31:10,600
sometimes but there are things now that I feel very confident saying no, you know, I'm not doing this I'm not doing that, and feel no guilt about it. And then sometimes when self doubt creeps in, which it inevitably does right because I think imposter syndrome is for me

482
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:25,600
it's it's almost always, you know, sometimes when I let the self doubt drown out my, my own inner knowledge of myself, imposter syndrome creeps in. And I just have to tell myself.

483
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:34,600
You've been down this path, many times, you know what you need to do. Just give yourself space and grace to do it.

484
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:48,600
I sometimes have to get a reminder from people. But yeah, I just these things these struggles come up from time to time. And they're always with me I guess but they come up from time to time and I just have to remind myself.

485
00:31:48,600 --> 00:32:04,600
I've done this many times before I can do it again. And I actually think one thing for me now in my, in this phase of my career, having other people reach out to me, other junior investigators or other trainees who are interested in pursuing a path of clinical research and sharing

486
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:20,600
my experience coming on sharing with you. I also think that that reminds me, you know how much I learned for the years and that's also another way that I found a silence that self critic or that self doubt, you know, when it comes up from time to time.

487
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:34,600
Wow, thank you for sharing that. So what I hear is someone who has always kind of been sure of herself or like a great great part of the journey, and then coming to this phase of the journey having self doubt kind of hold you back.

488
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:49,600
And as long as you were doubting yourself, you couldn't move forward. Yeah, when other people are like this is what you need to do this is what you need to do it didn't feel right because, in a sense, your mind was divided, do I go the way they tell me, or do I follow my, my inner person

489
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:58,600
and not even leading myself. Yes. You're so right. You're so right, I feel like, you know when I stop and think about it.

490
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:14,600
When I was growing up, you maybe we battled sexism I don't know, but definitely not racism, definitely not a sense of you don't belong that never it was never a thing for me, like it was never like I was never the other, you know, and then as I climbed up the

491
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:19,260
every tower in academia, that othering was always there,

492
00:33:19,260 --> 00:33:20,900
which is something I never grew up with.

493
00:33:20,900 --> 00:33:24,480
And I still, at first I didn't even recognize it, you know,

494
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,640
and I would sometimes feel that, right?

495
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:31,420
Like I am the only one of color here.

496
00:33:31,420 --> 00:33:32,700
I'm the only woman here.

497
00:33:32,700 --> 00:33:34,460
Like I'm the only, you know, it just, you know,

498
00:33:34,460 --> 00:33:36,740
it would come up and then sometimes I would think,

499
00:33:36,740 --> 00:33:38,720
do I not belong here?

500
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,760
You know, and I just had to tell myself that,

501
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,440
no, I belong here just as much as everybody else

502
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,240
who's in the majority.

503
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:50,840
The folks in the majority might have a leg up,

504
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,360
but that doesn't mean I can't work.

505
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,400
Maybe I had to work twice as hard,

506
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:57,040
maybe sometimes three times as hard,

507
00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,800
but it doesn't mean I can't let my work speak for itself,

508
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:00,640
you know?

509
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,940
And so I do think that sometimes, yes,

510
00:34:03,940 --> 00:34:05,760
when I grew up, when I was growing up,

511
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,660
I had a lot of self-confidence

512
00:34:08,660 --> 00:34:11,420
and that kind of got eroded a little bit,

513
00:34:11,420 --> 00:34:15,080
the higher up I went here in this country,

514
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:20,080
but the core value of self-knowledge, self-worth,

515
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,480
self-belief is always there.

516
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,660
I just have to sometimes dig deep to find it.

517
00:34:26,660 --> 00:34:27,680
But you're absolutely right.

518
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:29,080
I do think in the beginning,

519
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,760
I think I suffered a crisis of self-confidence

520
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,040
and felt very obligated to do something,

521
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,220
to do things or to fulfill other people's expectations

522
00:34:40,220 --> 00:34:42,000
of mine, even though I knew deep down

523
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,440
it wasn't the right thing for me at that time.

524
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:49,320
And then lo and behold, when I did feel I was ready

525
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:54,320
and I had the building blocks to write a full thought out key

526
00:34:55,380 --> 00:34:58,760
and I wrote that the second time around when I resubmitted,

527
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:03,120
I wrote it with so much more balance and peace.

528
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,160
It was really like, it just flowed, right?

529
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,260
There wasn't all these barriers

530
00:35:08,260 --> 00:35:09,800
that I'd experienced the first time

531
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,520
where I just felt like I was fighting an uphill battle.

532
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,960
You know, the second time around when I wrote that key,

533
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,960
it just, it felt right.

534
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:20,280
I don't know how else to describe it.

535
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:21,960
It just felt right.

536
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:23,980
Like, you know, when I needed guidance,

537
00:35:23,980 --> 00:35:25,420
I knew where to turn to.

538
00:35:25,420 --> 00:35:26,960
When I needed time to write things out,

539
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,480
it flowed out of me in a very,

540
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:35,280
not that it was easy, but it just felt right.

541
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,560
And I tell you, when I submitted that key,

542
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,800
in the midst of the shutdown of COVID,

543
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,360
I can't tell you, I can't describe how it felt.

544
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:48,360
I just felt like, ah, now this is the time.

545
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,240
Even though I felt like the world was ending.

546
00:35:51,240 --> 00:35:52,960
It just, it felt right.

547
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,960
And so I know what that feeling is like now.

548
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:57,640
And so now when I engage in things,

549
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,800
I always think to myself, does it feel right to me

550
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:02,640
to do this at this time?

551
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:04,360
If it doesn't feel right,

552
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,600
I have a lot more confidence in saying, okay, no,

553
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:07,520
I'm not gonna do this.

554
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,840
I'm gonna take a step back and re-examine and reassess.

555
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:14,480
And so, you know, I hope that folks that are listening

556
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:18,040
can understand sometimes people,

557
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:19,720
not that they have an agenda,

558
00:36:19,720 --> 00:36:22,040
but people often tell you the path

559
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,120
that they've taken to success.

560
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,820
And they make you feel like if you don't follow this path,

561
00:36:26,820 --> 00:36:28,800
you're not going to be successful.

562
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,120
And I'm here to tell you that that is as far

563
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:32,980
from the truth as it can be.

564
00:36:32,980 --> 00:36:35,240
Many people get to success the way that you,

565
00:36:35,240 --> 00:36:37,120
everybody defines success differently.

566
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,400
But many people get to success through different paths.

567
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,960
And you just have to learn what works for you

568
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:45,760
and what your path is.

569
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:50,000
And you have to be the one to define what success is for you.

570
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:55,000
So I had to learn to let go of those things

571
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,720
that didn't feel right and didn't sit right with me.

572
00:36:57,720 --> 00:37:02,720
And just, I guess, march to the beat of my own drum,

573
00:37:02,720 --> 00:37:05,300
which has never failed me.

574
00:37:05,300 --> 00:37:08,100
So anyhow, I hope that answered your question.

575
00:37:09,660 --> 00:37:11,460
And thinking you have a great drummer.

576
00:37:11,460 --> 00:37:16,420
No, that was really awesome.

577
00:37:16,420 --> 00:37:18,020
And actually I was about to ask you,

578
00:37:18,020 --> 00:37:21,120
I was like, so someone's here and you've kind of said it,

579
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:22,460
but I don't know if you have something else

580
00:37:22,460 --> 00:37:23,300
that you want to add.

581
00:37:23,300 --> 00:37:26,540
And they're thinking, I don't know, Big Bay,

582
00:37:26,540 --> 00:37:27,940
I've never done this before.

583
00:37:27,940 --> 00:37:29,580
And I don't know if I have that strong

584
00:37:29,580 --> 00:37:31,660
internal voice that you have.

585
00:37:31,660 --> 00:37:32,860
What would you tell them?

586
00:37:32,860 --> 00:37:34,700
What would you advise them to do?

587
00:37:34,700 --> 00:37:36,260
That's a really good question.

588
00:37:38,380 --> 00:37:41,060
I would say reach out and ask.

589
00:37:41,060 --> 00:37:42,540
Reach out and ask others.

590
00:37:42,540 --> 00:37:45,420
I did this a lot and I still do this to today.

591
00:37:45,420 --> 00:37:48,440
If I'm doing something where I feel a little bit intimidated,

592
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:49,940
I've never done this before,

593
00:37:49,940 --> 00:37:52,460
I've never stepped out in this way before,

594
00:37:52,460 --> 00:37:54,260
I feel a little bit vulnerable.

595
00:37:54,260 --> 00:37:58,100
Some people are afraid of trying and failing.

596
00:37:58,100 --> 00:38:01,300
I will say sometimes I'm afraid of trying and succeeding

597
00:38:01,300 --> 00:38:03,700
as ironic as that sounds.

598
00:38:03,700 --> 00:38:06,160
I ask, I ask others, people that I know,

599
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:07,460
people that I trust.

600
00:38:07,460 --> 00:38:10,580
And I'll ask them, hey, you've done this thing,

601
00:38:10,580 --> 00:38:13,060
which I think it's phenomenal.

602
00:38:13,060 --> 00:38:15,780
I want to do it too.

603
00:38:15,780 --> 00:38:17,460
What was your process?

604
00:38:17,460 --> 00:38:18,860
And I don't just ask one person,

605
00:38:18,860 --> 00:38:21,920
I asked a few people because I want to get a rounded view.

606
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,740
Once again, one person's path is one person's path.

607
00:38:24,740 --> 00:38:26,180
That's what it is, right?

608
00:38:26,180 --> 00:38:28,660
And sometimes you have to glean things

609
00:38:28,660 --> 00:38:32,900
from different people in order to build your own path.

610
00:38:32,900 --> 00:38:34,840
So I'll use the K as an example again.

611
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,540
When I was writing the K, I had never done that before.

612
00:38:37,540 --> 00:38:39,140
I was very intimidated.

613
00:38:39,140 --> 00:38:41,340
I was also feeling a lot of pressure.

614
00:38:41,340 --> 00:38:44,980
But I did ask other people that I had met along the way

615
00:38:44,980 --> 00:38:46,860
who had written successful K grants

616
00:38:46,860 --> 00:38:49,060
if they were willing to share theirs with me

617
00:38:49,060 --> 00:38:50,920
and more often than not they were.

618
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:52,860
And when I read through the applications,

619
00:38:52,860 --> 00:38:55,060
I was like, oh, I like this aspect of what they wrote

620
00:38:55,060 --> 00:38:57,500
or I like how they presented this particular thing

621
00:38:57,500 --> 00:39:00,300
or I like how they had a figure or a diagram

622
00:39:00,300 --> 00:39:01,860
to explain their aims.

623
00:39:01,860 --> 00:39:03,420
And I just kind of picked and borrowed

624
00:39:03,420 --> 00:39:05,100
different things that I liked.

625
00:39:05,100 --> 00:39:07,700
And then I crafted my own application

626
00:39:07,700 --> 00:39:11,060
or my own proposal in my own voice, right?

627
00:39:11,060 --> 00:39:13,240
But borrowing elements from others.

628
00:39:13,240 --> 00:39:16,140
And so sometimes when you're stepping out to do something,

629
00:39:16,140 --> 00:39:17,420
oh, I'm going to write a grant.

630
00:39:17,420 --> 00:39:18,980
I'm going to apply for a job.

631
00:39:18,980 --> 00:39:20,980
Oh, I'm going to give this talk

632
00:39:20,980 --> 00:39:23,980
or I'm going to like engage in this particular thing

633
00:39:23,980 --> 00:39:25,700
that nobody's ever done before.

634
00:39:25,700 --> 00:39:27,500
I feel really intimidated.

635
00:39:27,500 --> 00:39:30,300
Just know that the people who have done those things

636
00:39:30,300 --> 00:39:32,440
were in your shoes at some point.

637
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:33,980
And if you have the ability,

638
00:39:33,980 --> 00:39:35,140
I know that's not always the case,

639
00:39:35,140 --> 00:39:37,600
but if you have the opportunity or the ability

640
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,620
to talk to these people, reach out and ask.

641
00:39:40,620 --> 00:39:43,700
The worst they can say, or they could ignore you

642
00:39:43,700 --> 00:39:46,260
or I can't tell you how many emails I sent

643
00:39:46,260 --> 00:39:47,780
that I never heard back.

644
00:39:47,780 --> 00:39:50,080
But I was persistent and I was tenacious.

645
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,300
And if one person doesn't respond,

646
00:39:53,300 --> 00:39:55,860
your need is just one, maybe two people, right?

647
00:39:55,860 --> 00:39:57,780
And so if one person doesn't respond, it's okay.

648
00:39:57,780 --> 00:40:00,700
You can ask another person or you can ask other people.

649
00:40:00,700 --> 00:40:02,980
So yeah, I would say if you're starting off

650
00:40:02,980 --> 00:40:04,380
and you haven't done something before

651
00:40:04,380 --> 00:40:07,700
and you feel very intimidated, just ask, right?

652
00:40:07,700 --> 00:40:08,980
Just ask.

653
00:40:08,980 --> 00:40:12,300
A good friend told me, if you don't ask,

654
00:40:12,300 --> 00:40:14,620
well, he was putting in the context of applying for grants,

655
00:40:14,620 --> 00:40:15,620
because at that time I was like,

656
00:40:15,620 --> 00:40:16,860
oh, should I apply for this grant

657
00:40:16,860 --> 00:40:18,540
or apply for this grant or apply for that grant?

658
00:40:18,540 --> 00:40:21,620
He's like, apply for all of them, right?

659
00:40:21,620 --> 00:40:24,580
It's like 100%, you won't get funded

660
00:40:24,580 --> 00:40:26,340
if you don't apply, right?

661
00:40:26,340 --> 00:40:29,820
But if you apply for two things or three things,

662
00:40:29,820 --> 00:40:31,220
you might get one, right?

663
00:40:31,220 --> 00:40:36,220
So I would change that context and say, just ask, right?

664
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,740
The worst that could happen is they don't get back to you.

665
00:40:39,740 --> 00:40:41,580
Not a big deal, it's a big world.

666
00:40:41,580 --> 00:40:42,700
There are many other people out there

667
00:40:42,700 --> 00:40:44,100
who have done those same things.

668
00:40:44,100 --> 00:40:46,700
And feel free to ask them, you know?

669
00:40:46,700 --> 00:40:48,580
And I think another important thing is,

670
00:40:48,580 --> 00:40:51,500
surround yourself with a group of people

671
00:40:51,500 --> 00:40:55,260
who have different skill sets that you need.

672
00:40:55,260 --> 00:41:00,100
Don't put all your hopes and dreams on one magical mentor.

673
00:41:00,100 --> 00:41:01,860
They do not exist, right?

674
00:41:01,860 --> 00:41:03,660
But surround yourself with people

675
00:41:03,660 --> 00:41:06,300
who have accomplished things that you want to accomplish,

676
00:41:06,300 --> 00:41:08,900
who have the knowledge base or the skill set

677
00:41:08,900 --> 00:41:11,220
to do what it is that you're trying to do.

678
00:41:11,220 --> 00:41:13,800
And like I said, you're gonna learn different things

679
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,620
from different people, but take what you can,

680
00:41:16,620 --> 00:41:20,180
not in a sort of parasitic way, obviously,

681
00:41:20,180 --> 00:41:22,340
but take what you can, learn what you can

682
00:41:22,340 --> 00:41:25,820
from different people, and then craft that into your own,

683
00:41:25,820 --> 00:41:29,260
to basically guide your own journey.

684
00:41:29,260 --> 00:41:33,580
Have multiple mentors, try to find multiple sponsors,

685
00:41:33,580 --> 00:41:36,540
try to find multiple peers who are doing similar things

686
00:41:36,540 --> 00:41:38,580
that you're doing, try to build a community.

687
00:41:38,580 --> 00:41:42,080
For me, I've never operated well in a vacuum,

688
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:43,780
so I'm always trying to figure out,

689
00:41:43,780 --> 00:41:46,440
are there other people at my institution

690
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:48,500
or other people outside of my institution

691
00:41:48,500 --> 00:41:50,340
that I could community with,

692
00:41:50,340 --> 00:41:52,340
and who can be supportive of me,

693
00:41:52,340 --> 00:41:54,340
and who I also can support,

694
00:41:54,340 --> 00:41:56,540
when and if they need that support.

695
00:41:56,540 --> 00:41:58,940
I do think finding a community of other people

696
00:41:58,940 --> 00:42:01,340
who are interested in what you're doing is very important.

697
00:42:01,340 --> 00:42:05,180
And in this academia world, sometimes we're told,

698
00:42:05,180 --> 00:42:07,720
that you are the expert, you should be able to do

699
00:42:07,720 --> 00:42:09,020
all of this stuff by yourself.

700
00:42:09,020 --> 00:42:10,380
And I don't think that's true.

701
00:42:10,380 --> 00:42:11,700
I actually really don't think that's true.

702
00:42:11,700 --> 00:42:14,680
I do think that having a collaborative mindset

703
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:17,220
is a way to go, and a way to sustain yourself

704
00:42:17,220 --> 00:42:19,200
in this challenging world.

705
00:42:20,300 --> 00:42:21,940
Absolutely, absolutely.

706
00:42:21,940 --> 00:42:23,100
Thank you for sharing that.

707
00:42:23,100 --> 00:42:25,500
I mean, there's so many gems in what you said.

708
00:42:25,500 --> 00:42:27,700
And I think one of the things I wanna emphasize

709
00:42:27,700 --> 00:42:30,740
is just that, you know, if you're afraid,

710
00:42:30,740 --> 00:42:33,780
it's usually a sign that you may not be in a safe space.

711
00:42:33,780 --> 00:42:35,980
And so looking for those safe spaces

712
00:42:35,980 --> 00:42:38,280
where people encourage you to believe in yourself

713
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,380
and speak in your own voice and be your own person,

714
00:42:41,380 --> 00:42:44,300
because people are trying to tell you how to be like them,

715
00:42:44,300 --> 00:42:45,860
and you don't need to be like them.

716
00:42:45,860 --> 00:42:46,700
They're already there.

717
00:42:46,700 --> 00:42:49,020
Why would you wanna try to imitate them?

718
00:42:49,020 --> 00:42:51,860
It's using what gifts you can get from them

719
00:42:51,860 --> 00:42:53,580
to create a bigger, better you.

720
00:42:53,580 --> 00:42:55,420
And how amazing is that?

721
00:42:55,420 --> 00:42:56,260
Yeah, it's very amazing.

722
00:42:56,260 --> 00:42:59,300
To create a greater version of yourself.

723
00:42:59,300 --> 00:43:02,340
And it's not like that's what you've been doing,

724
00:43:02,340 --> 00:43:04,060
and you're on the journey.

725
00:43:04,060 --> 00:43:04,900
Yes.

726
00:43:04,900 --> 00:43:05,740
Yes.

727
00:43:05,740 --> 00:43:07,180
Thinking today to do that.

728
00:43:07,180 --> 00:43:08,020
Yes.

729
00:43:08,020 --> 00:43:08,860
Yeah.

730
00:43:10,660 --> 00:43:12,500
You know, I wanna say thank you

731
00:43:12,500 --> 00:43:15,300
for sharing your story with us today, which is,

732
00:43:15,300 --> 00:43:16,940
oh my goodness, it's a powerful story.

733
00:43:16,940 --> 00:43:19,820
And I know that you have so much more to share.

734
00:43:19,820 --> 00:43:21,380
And so actually I wanna invite you,

735
00:43:21,380 --> 00:43:23,140
so if someone's been listening and they're like,

736
00:43:23,140 --> 00:43:25,340
oh, Bing Fei is my person,

737
00:43:25,340 --> 00:43:27,220
he's gotta be a mentor I talk to,

738
00:43:27,220 --> 00:43:29,900
or he's someone I need to collaborate with,

739
00:43:29,900 --> 00:43:31,820
how can they find you?

740
00:43:31,820 --> 00:43:36,820
So, let's see, my email is adishinao.ucdavis.edu.

741
00:43:38,140 --> 00:43:39,700
And I'm also, if you just,

742
00:43:40,780 --> 00:43:43,820
my name is not very common,

743
00:43:43,820 --> 00:43:45,660
you should be able to find me.

744
00:43:45,660 --> 00:43:47,660
But then on the UC Davis website,

745
00:43:47,660 --> 00:43:50,100
under the Hematology and Ecology faculty,

746
00:43:50,100 --> 00:43:52,420
I think I'm number two, based on my last name.

747
00:43:52,420 --> 00:43:54,500
So, very easy to find.

748
00:43:54,500 --> 00:43:57,460
But yeah, email is the best way.

749
00:43:57,460 --> 00:44:01,060
Sure, so it sounds like if you just Google Bing Fei,

750
00:44:01,060 --> 00:44:02,380
you will find her.

751
00:44:02,380 --> 00:44:03,500
You will find her.

752
00:44:03,500 --> 00:44:04,340
Yes.

753
00:44:04,340 --> 00:44:05,180
You will find her.

754
00:44:05,180 --> 00:44:08,420
And she is open and available to kind of listen in.

755
00:44:08,420 --> 00:44:09,580
If you're looking for encouragement,

756
00:44:09,580 --> 00:44:11,420
she definitely wants to encourage you.

757
00:44:11,420 --> 00:44:13,900
So, I just wanna thank you, Bing Fei,

758
00:44:13,900 --> 00:44:15,300
for being on the show.

759
00:44:15,300 --> 00:44:19,020
And to our listeners, I wanna say that Bing Fei made it.

760
00:44:19,020 --> 00:44:21,340
She exhibited self-leadership,

761
00:44:21,340 --> 00:44:23,900
and she silenced the voice of doubt.

762
00:44:23,900 --> 00:44:28,900
And she was able to kind of re-energize her belief

763
00:44:29,260 --> 00:44:31,220
in herself so that she could move forward.

764
00:44:31,220 --> 00:44:33,860
And if she could do that, you can do it too.

765
00:44:33,860 --> 00:44:35,260
And I was just wondering.

766
00:44:35,260 --> 00:44:36,620
Yeah.

767
00:44:36,620 --> 00:44:38,220
And so, I just wanna encourage you.

768
00:44:38,220 --> 00:44:41,860
This week, think about what circles can you get into

769
00:44:41,860 --> 00:44:44,380
that will help you encourage you to believe in yourself,

770
00:44:44,380 --> 00:44:47,100
to be more of you rather than more of somebody else.

771
00:44:47,100 --> 00:44:48,980
And if you're looking for ideas,

772
00:44:48,980 --> 00:44:50,540
please definitely reach out.

773
00:44:50,540 --> 00:44:52,380
We will send out weekly information

774
00:44:52,380 --> 00:44:55,180
as to how you can grow more as a clinician researcher.

775
00:44:55,180 --> 00:44:56,500
And definitely we'll share with you

776
00:44:56,500 --> 00:44:58,700
as more episodes become available.

777
00:44:58,700 --> 00:45:01,140
Thank you for listening with us today.

778
00:45:01,140 --> 00:45:02,620
Enjoy the rest of your week.

779
00:45:02,620 --> 00:45:15,220
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast, where academic

780
00:45:15,220 --> 00:45:20,540
clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they

781
00:45:20,540 --> 00:45:22,020
have a mentor.

782
00:45:22,020 --> 00:45:28,140
If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.

783
00:45:28,140 --> 00:45:29,900
Someone else needs to hear it.

784
00:45:29,900 --> 00:45:33,940
So, take a minute right now and share it.

785
00:45:33,940 --> 00:45:39,420
As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation

786
00:45:39,420 --> 00:46:00,460
of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.