Powerful Conversations to Shape Your Career

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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills

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to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.

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When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find

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that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research

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program.

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Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.

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However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.

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For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians

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the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.

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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast.

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I'm your host, Toyosi Onwuemene, and what a pleasure to be talking with you today.

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Thank you so much for tuning in.

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I'm excited to bring you this particular podcast episode because I will tell you that it's

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one of those podcast episodes that I'm actually recording for myself.

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I record many podcast episodes for people based on questions they're asking me or conversations

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that come up, or things that come up in conversation.

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Today is a unique day.

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I'm recording for me.

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And so as I'm speaking, I hope I say something that resonates with you, at least one thing

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of many of the things that I say, but if it doesn't, let me know.

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And if it does resonate, if something resonates with you, let me know as well.

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I'd just be interested to see, because I feel like this is one of the first ones I've done

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where I'm literally speaking to myself.

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Anyway, if I hadn't said that, maybe you wouldn't have known.

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But I wanted to say that because I'm going to come back and listen to this, and then

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I'm going to make decisions on the basis of how I feel at the end of listening to it.

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So anyway, you've been warned.

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But why this particular episode?

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So this episode I'm calling Powerful Conversations That Shape Your Career, Powerful Conversations

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That Shape Your Career.

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And I recently submitted materials for promotion.

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And I have to tell you that ever since I did that, ever since I hit the submit button,

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I feel like I've been thrown into an existential crisis.

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And I don't know if maybe existential crisis is the right way to see it.

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It feels a little bit dramatic.

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Like really, this is an existential crisis.

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But it really is the place of like, oh, well, what do I do with my life now?

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I mean, yeah, I've submitted the materials for promotion, right?

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My work is done.

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There's nothing more I can do.

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I cannot guarantee the promotion.

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I can't do any of it.

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But I'm done.

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And so we know how sometimes in life we wait until we win before we celebrate.

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Well, I learned a long time ago, fortunately, I have a group of wonderful peer coaches.

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And we meet weekly when we can.

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And we celebrate wins.

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And we celebrate wins not when the outcome is granted.

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Like for example, we submit.

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We submit a grant.

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We celebrate the submission, right?

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We submit the manuscript.

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We celebrate the submission.

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And many times in life, we're waiting for the thing where we're like, oh, it got accepted.

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Celebration.

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Yeah, it is a celebration when it gets accepted.

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But to be honest, that's like a late celebration.

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The real thing that you have control over is showing up every day and shipping, showing

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up and just pushing it out, right?

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That's the win.

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That's the part you control.

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Whether people accept what you ship out, whether people accept your submission or whether they

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love it or they don't love it, out of your control, right?

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You do everything you can.

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You commit with excellence.

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You put it all together and then you send it out into the universe and then you're done.

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That is the moment of celebration because it is the combination of your efforts.

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It's a combination of the things that you have control over.

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And therefore, the fact that you've come to the finish line and you submit, that is a

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big deal and worthy of celebration.

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So it's a practice that we've had now for really over the past five years now.

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And I have to say it's a practice that sticks.

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And I now celebrate at the point of submission.

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Whatever happens is out of my control, but I celebrate the work that I've done up until

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this point.

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So I submitted my materials for promotion and I celebrate it.

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I celebrate it.

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It was such a great experience pulling together the materials and writing my intellectual

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statement and shaping it.

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It was such a great experience.

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And one of the great experiences that came out of it was that there was just such a sense

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of gratitude.

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Like, wow, like, wow.

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Looking back over the past 10 years of my career, I have really enjoyed my trajectory.

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I've enjoyed the things I've done.

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I love the questions I've asked.

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I love the manuscripts I've written.

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I am proud of my work.

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And what a thing to celebrate.

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Well, so yeah, I submit all of that.

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And then I'm like, well, what do I do now?

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What am I going to do with my life?

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I mean, clearly work doesn't stop and the schedule continues.

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The cycle of life continues.

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But I changed.

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Something's changed inside me and I can't even really explain what it is.

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I just know that it's time for something more.

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And you might say, hey, why don't you wait, see if you get the promotion and then try

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to change things up.

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But again, I told you it already happened.

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The biggest event happened.

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I submitted everything else outside of my control.

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I'm not even looking to that as a thing to celebrate.

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So that's where I am in this place.

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I'm like, well, how do I do now?

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What do I want to do?

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And to be honest, if I don't change anything, life is great.

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But I just know, you know, when you just know that it's time, but you're like, well, what

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is it time for?

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Anyway, so I feel that to say that, you know, when you have this feeling, you know, feeling

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that something needs to be different and you're not even sure what, maybe you've been there,

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maybe you haven't.

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I suspect you've been there because we've had many transition points in our careers

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already, like just coming to the faculty role.

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Many transition points have happened, but it's always happening at least.

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But there are some points where there's just a clarity of like, okay, some things needs

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to be different, but you're not sure what it is.

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So I want to talk about conversations that shape these transition points and the importance

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of thinking critically about who is in my circle, my circle of counselors that helps

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me make decisions, right?

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They may not even know that you're talking with them about big decision-making moments,

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but who are the people we go to and what are some of the phases you think through as you're

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thinking about these people as your counselors?

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So the very first thing, the very first group I think about is your early-career mentors.

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Now, I don't know about you, but I really grew up with this sense of like, who's the

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one mentor who's taking ownership of my life?

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Who's the one mentor?

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Who's the one mentor?

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And I, you know, I mean, it was never real for me.

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It was never one person, right?

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There was never the one.

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I don't even believe in the one.

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I don't preach about the one.

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I think it's important for everybody to think about the network of mentors.

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But definitely when you're younger, and I think some of that comes from kind of our

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early life and the fact that we have parental figures and they were kind of really prominent.

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So I liken it to that in our early career where there's this sense like, who's the

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one person who I go to for the most important big decisions of my career?

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And I think it's okay to start there because, hey, where else are you going to start?

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You start with one, right?

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And you never despise the small numbers because small things become great things.

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And so, yeah, you start off with one person that you trust and you speak to a lot more

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than others, right?

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And we have many people in our lives.

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It's not just our, you know, the people that we have in our careers.

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But when we think about our medical careers, there's a select group of people who can speak

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to our experiences, right?

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In our families, our families may be like, especially if they're not medical, they're

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like, well, you've done a lot.

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Is there more?

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You just like dial it back.

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So it's not that we don't have people surrounding us.

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It's like you start to think, who are the people who get it?

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Who are the people who get me?

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Who are the people who understand?

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Right?

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Anyway, so you start out with the early career mentors, you know, the people you go to regularly

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for advice.

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But even if you have that, and many of us don't have that, or many of us didn't have

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that, or we didn't, and we didn't really acknowledge it, or it didn't feel like what we thought

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we were looking for.

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And so, I don't know, we never, we feel like we didn't win that lottery.

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But even if you did, you get to a point where you realize that this one person that you

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go to often is not enough.

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And the questions, to be honest, have always been bigger than this one person.

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But the more you advance in your career, the more experiences you gain, the more people

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you meet, you begin to realize that I need more.

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And in reality, there was a point in our lives when we're okay just talking about the career

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stuff all the time.

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But then there's a point we get to in our lives where we're like, well, I'd love to

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talk about the career stuff, but can I just acknowledge that I need to care for my parents,

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and I'm wondering about how to do that in the midst of my job?

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Or can I just admit that my kids are no longer babies, but hey, they're at a place in life

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where I feel like they need me more, even though they kind of don't, right?

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Those are the kinds of conversations, or maybe you're like, well, you know, I need help.

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I want to talk about our relationship, maybe a significant relationship in your life.

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What I'm saying is that there's so many things beyond your career where when you first start

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out, you're content to leave them all out of the conversation of your career because

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you're like, well, this is my career and that's my life.

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Then you get to a place where it's like, wait, can I just be honest about how these things

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actually color my perspective on my career?

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And it's real.

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And to be honest, it's always been there.

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But it's us getting to a point where we feel comfortable or confident enough to say, can

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I stop lying?

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Can I come out of the closet now and tell you that my relationships matter in my career

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decisions?

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Can I kind of just be honest about that?

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Can I tell you that, yeah, I mean, I may never have said that this is what I'm dealing with

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in my family, but this is relevant.

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But we move from where we are like, okay, let's just talk about career.

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Let's just talk about career with our one mentor.

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When we get to a point where we're like, I need more, who else can I talk to?

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Who else can I talk to that helps me think about how I'm shaping my career in light of

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everything else that's going on?

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Who else can I reach out to?

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And so that's where we move on to another phase.

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And that's where we talk to peer mentors.

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And to be honest, I think many of us do a good job of having peer mentors along the

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journey.

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When we get to our careers, somehow we say, hey, peer mentors, you guys are good for residency

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at all?

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I'm going to focus on this one mentor right now.

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But as you grow, you start to realize that, you know what, my peers, my peers, or my near

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peers, they've got a lot to tell me.

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They may not be super senior to me, but there are a lot more things, more conversations

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I can have with these people who are my peers and feel like, okay, I'm bringing more of

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my life to the table.

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I'll tell you this earlier this evening at a great gathering with a group of some of

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my colleagues from residency.

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I just was struck by the kind of camaraderie that we still share.

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We don't really talk very often, but when we see each other, there's just such a depth

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of love and understanding that exists.

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And I was sitting down pondering that today.

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I was like, what is that?

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I mean, you know, residency, it's a challenging time.

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And so the people with whom you've had a shared experience, there's a certain bond that grows,

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but you don't have that with everybody.

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But there are some people where every time you meet them, you know, this person's got

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my back, this person's looking out for me.

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And so these are peer mentors where you can sit down and have a conversation.

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And I had one with one of my colleagues who was like, hey, it was a stressful time and

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I could just sit down and listen and be a sounding board.

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And he in turn for me, and so what a beautiful experience to have that network of peers where

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even if you don't meet regularly, but I actually do have a network that I meet weekly with

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and I haven't been able to meet with them for two weeks now, but we're still checking

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in and we're saying, hey, how are things going?

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We still maintain the network.

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We have a group chat.

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And so there's that connection that continues.

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And it's great because it's career focused.

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We are clearly about advancing our careers, but it's also very much more real life, very

235
00:12:54,380 --> 00:13:00,380
much more, yeah, we're talking about our careers, but can I talk about my recent visit to the

236
00:13:00,380 --> 00:13:04,300
doctor with my son and the challenges that that brings?

237
00:13:04,300 --> 00:13:06,140
And that's all part of our ongoing conversations.

238
00:13:06,140 --> 00:13:10,500
And it's a really beautiful thing because, you know, there's no feeling that we have

239
00:13:10,500 --> 00:13:14,660
to hold back or pretend everything's okay so that maybe a mentor doesn't feel like,

240
00:13:14,660 --> 00:13:16,260
hey, can you handle this work?

241
00:13:16,260 --> 00:13:18,980
You know, just none of that, right?

242
00:13:18,980 --> 00:13:25,580
Okay, so you start off with those, you know, focus, I'm just here for my career, senior

243
00:13:25,580 --> 00:13:27,900
mentor, tell me what to do.

244
00:13:27,900 --> 00:13:32,420
And then you start to branch out into, who can I really talk to where my career and my

245
00:13:32,420 --> 00:13:39,420
family can come together and I can really talk, you know, talk about the real things.

246
00:13:39,420 --> 00:13:41,700
And so that's your peer mentoring group.

247
00:13:41,700 --> 00:13:46,100
Okay, now the third group is colleagues on the edge of the rim.

248
00:13:46,100 --> 00:13:49,100
That's what I call them, I call them colleagues on the edge of the rim.

249
00:13:49,100 --> 00:13:53,980
So the people I call colleagues on the edge of the rim, and maybe that is a better term,

250
00:13:53,980 --> 00:13:56,380
I'm not even sure what the term should be.

251
00:13:56,380 --> 00:14:00,700
But these are your colleagues who, they're on the edge.

252
00:14:00,700 --> 00:14:03,660
They're on the fringes of faculty life.

253
00:14:03,660 --> 00:14:05,700
They haven't left for industry.

254
00:14:05,700 --> 00:14:09,580
They haven't, you know, left to go do something else.

255
00:14:09,580 --> 00:14:12,720
They haven't quit medicine altogether, but they're not doing things the way everybody

256
00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:14,220
else is doing.

257
00:14:14,220 --> 00:14:16,660
You know, they're just, they're out there doing different things.

258
00:14:16,660 --> 00:14:20,380
And you look at them and you're like, you know, I don't want to be like you, but you

259
00:14:20,380 --> 00:14:22,580
know, I kind of want to be like you.

260
00:14:22,580 --> 00:14:25,260
Can you help me understand why you do what you do?

261
00:14:25,260 --> 00:14:26,980
Why you think how you think?

262
00:14:26,980 --> 00:14:31,980
You know, one of my colleagues, and he came to mind as I've been thinking about my, these

263
00:14:31,980 --> 00:14:36,820
powerful conversations that shape my career, he comes to mind and he's very much a guy

264
00:14:36,820 --> 00:14:40,500
who, when I first started, he'd be like, you don't see, you don't have to do it.

265
00:14:40,500 --> 00:14:41,500
Just say no.

266
00:14:41,500 --> 00:14:44,260
And I'm like, oh, you know, we've been asked to cover vacation.

267
00:14:44,260 --> 00:14:45,260
He's like, you know what?

268
00:14:45,260 --> 00:14:46,260
Don't want to cover vacation.

269
00:14:46,260 --> 00:14:47,260
Just say no.

270
00:14:47,260 --> 00:14:48,620
It's like, you can't say no.

271
00:14:48,620 --> 00:14:49,620
Everybody has to cover.

272
00:14:49,620 --> 00:14:51,620
It's like, nope, just say no.

273
00:14:51,620 --> 00:14:55,940
And you know, so, you know, one of those people who's like, you're, you're like, yeah, you

274
00:14:55,940 --> 00:15:01,100
clearly don't follow the convention, you know, and you have mixed feelings about them.

275
00:15:01,100 --> 00:15:02,100
And I did.

276
00:15:02,100 --> 00:15:03,420
I have mixed feelings about this.

277
00:15:03,420 --> 00:15:07,700
My colleague, he's a great guy, but I'm also like, I'm like, I don't know if I'm ready

278
00:15:07,700 --> 00:15:10,460
to be off on the edge like that.

279
00:15:10,460 --> 00:15:11,860
How about I go over here?

280
00:15:11,860 --> 00:15:15,740
But every so often you get to a point where you're like, you know what?

281
00:15:15,740 --> 00:15:16,980
I'm not even sure what I want to do.

282
00:15:16,980 --> 00:15:21,060
I want to go find those colleagues who are kind of doing things differently or who think

283
00:15:21,060 --> 00:15:27,660
radically differently and, and pull them or, you know, talk to them and say, Hey, talk

284
00:15:27,660 --> 00:15:32,300
to me about how you think about X, Y, Z. And you need those people.

285
00:15:32,300 --> 00:15:37,660
The reason you need those people is because whenever you're on the fringe of transition,

286
00:15:37,660 --> 00:15:41,580
you need people who don't think like everybody else does.

287
00:15:41,580 --> 00:15:44,060
You need people who are not status quo.

288
00:15:44,060 --> 00:15:48,820
You need people who think differently because they cause you to think differently.

289
00:15:48,820 --> 00:15:54,580
They cause you, they jog, they jog, jog your memory or they, they, they stir things that

290
00:15:54,580 --> 00:15:58,260
are deep inside you that you suppress because you're, you know, probably like me, goody

291
00:15:58,260 --> 00:15:59,260
two shoes.

292
00:15:59,260 --> 00:16:03,100
You want to like follow the rules, do what everybody else is supposed to be doing.

293
00:16:03,100 --> 00:16:06,280
Once every once in a while, you're like, I want to go to the people who seem like they're

294
00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,780
doing things differently. And I wouldn't say, Hey, how are you thinking about this?

295
00:16:09,780 --> 00:16:11,420
Because I want new thought.

296
00:16:11,420 --> 00:16:15,740
I want, I want new ideas and you have ideas that are different.

297
00:16:15,740 --> 00:16:17,700
I want to hear about it.

298
00:16:17,700 --> 00:16:22,340
And so these are some of these conversations that I think are important to have with the

299
00:16:22,340 --> 00:16:26,300
faculty who are doing things differently, who live life differently, who show up differently.

300
00:16:26,300 --> 00:16:27,300
You don't see them.

301
00:16:27,300 --> 00:16:28,960
You got to go find them.

302
00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:29,960
So that's my colleague.

303
00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:31,220
We're going to have a meeting with him in a couple of weeks.

304
00:16:31,220 --> 00:16:32,220
He doesn't know yet.

305
00:16:32,220 --> 00:16:33,380
And I haven't even scheduled the time.

306
00:16:33,380 --> 00:16:36,240
I haven't reached out, but I know we're talking.

307
00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,060
And I have to go find him because he doesn't walk the hallways.

308
00:16:39,060 --> 00:16:41,340
He's not in the meetings.

309
00:16:41,340 --> 00:16:43,540
I usually don't see him.

310
00:16:43,540 --> 00:16:45,340
These are the people I call colleagues on the end.

311
00:16:45,340 --> 00:16:46,340
They're on the fringes.

312
00:16:46,340 --> 00:16:47,340
They haven't left.

313
00:16:47,340 --> 00:16:48,880
They didn't quit academia.

314
00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:51,700
They're still doing it, but they're doing it uniquely.

315
00:16:51,700 --> 00:16:53,180
They're doing it in their own way.

316
00:16:53,180 --> 00:16:58,940
And I think it's important to have these conversations so you can say, Hey, what else is out there?

317
00:16:58,940 --> 00:17:03,260
And if someone's shaping their careers differently, how, how might I think about doing it?

318
00:17:03,260 --> 00:17:05,680
How might I think about doing it?

319
00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:10,220
So think about your colleagues who I call colleagues on the edge of the room, colleagues

320
00:17:10,220 --> 00:17:12,540
on the edge, maybe colleagues on the edge.

321
00:17:12,540 --> 00:17:13,540
All right.

322
00:17:13,540 --> 00:17:17,100
I need to find a better name, but that's what you get.

323
00:17:17,100 --> 00:17:21,820
Number four is to talk to people who are nearing the end of their careers.

324
00:17:21,820 --> 00:17:22,820
Yeah.

325
00:17:22,820 --> 00:17:27,220
That means that 20, 30, actually more like 30, 40 years out, they're nearing the end

326
00:17:27,220 --> 00:17:28,220
of their careers.

327
00:17:28,220 --> 00:17:30,060
And you can tell because they've started stepping down.

328
00:17:30,060 --> 00:17:31,060
They've started stepping back.

329
00:17:31,060 --> 00:17:37,020
I met such a colleague today and she's giving up one of her pivotal roles.

330
00:17:37,020 --> 00:17:38,740
And I'm like, what's going on?

331
00:17:38,740 --> 00:17:39,740
What are you doing?

332
00:17:39,740 --> 00:17:40,740
Are you retiring?

333
00:17:40,740 --> 00:17:41,740
And she's like, no, not retiring.

334
00:17:41,740 --> 00:17:43,700
I'm just stepping back.

335
00:17:43,700 --> 00:17:47,420
When colleagues are starting to step back, they're closer to the end of their careers

336
00:17:47,420 --> 00:17:53,180
because they've kind of, I don't want to say they've peaked, but they've done it.

337
00:17:53,180 --> 00:17:55,900
They've like gone for gold.

338
00:17:55,900 --> 00:18:00,100
They've gotten all the, you know, all the, they, they met all the criteria.

339
00:18:00,100 --> 00:18:01,100
They've been promoted.

340
00:18:01,100 --> 00:18:02,900
They've been in leadership.

341
00:18:02,900 --> 00:18:04,500
They've just done it all.

342
00:18:04,500 --> 00:18:07,060
And now they're like, don't have to do that anymore.

343
00:18:07,060 --> 00:18:09,060
And they're starting to peel back.

344
00:18:09,060 --> 00:18:13,300
You know who those colleagues are, but it's really important to have conversations with

345
00:18:13,300 --> 00:18:18,180
these kinds of colleagues because they may not necessarily tell you what to do.

346
00:18:18,180 --> 00:18:20,900
They have a unique perspective.

347
00:18:20,900 --> 00:18:24,140
They talk to you about what really matters.

348
00:18:24,140 --> 00:18:26,020
They're like, yeah, all this checking box stuff.

349
00:18:26,020 --> 00:18:27,940
I did all that.

350
00:18:27,940 --> 00:18:31,900
And what really matters is, and they share and they have such gold.

351
00:18:31,900 --> 00:18:36,340
And so what you get from them is perspective.

352
00:18:36,340 --> 00:18:40,260
It's an opportunity to travel to the future and look back.

353
00:18:40,260 --> 00:18:42,340
And now they're not in your future.

354
00:18:42,340 --> 00:18:47,100
You're creating your own, but it's such an opportunity to say, okay, what do they say

355
00:18:47,100 --> 00:18:50,100
matters the most today?

356
00:18:50,100 --> 00:18:53,980
As they're looking back on an illustrious career, like these people have really done

357
00:18:53,980 --> 00:18:54,980
amazing.

358
00:18:54,980 --> 00:18:59,020
They're not just like, you know, I was just a bum the whole time of my career and now

359
00:18:59,020 --> 00:19:01,420
I'm just going to quit.

360
00:19:01,420 --> 00:19:03,620
They've really done it.

361
00:19:03,620 --> 00:19:09,220
And so it's so helpful to have these conversations with them to say, hey, how did you think about

362
00:19:09,220 --> 00:19:10,540
your career?

363
00:19:10,540 --> 00:19:12,340
Why did you do it this way?

364
00:19:12,340 --> 00:19:13,620
What are you thinking about?

365
00:19:13,620 --> 00:19:18,060
And in these conversations, you're not going to ask them, what do I do?

366
00:19:18,060 --> 00:19:21,780
You're just going to get wisdom from them.

367
00:19:21,780 --> 00:19:25,980
I'll share with you one such wisdom that I got today.

368
00:19:25,980 --> 00:19:28,260
And I'm trying to think, which one do I share?

369
00:19:28,260 --> 00:19:32,900
But one of the things this colleague told me is that, yeah, you know, sometimes you

370
00:19:32,900 --> 00:19:41,820
get to a point where you know something has to change and you have to respect that.

371
00:19:41,820 --> 00:19:46,900
And you know, as I speak about it now, it doesn't feel so powerful and insightful, but

372
00:19:46,900 --> 00:19:47,900
it is.

373
00:19:47,900 --> 00:19:53,300
It is because sometimes we're doing, doing, doing, doing, doing, doing, doing, doing,

374
00:19:53,300 --> 00:20:01,380
and we need someone to tell us it's okay to pause and pay attention, pay attention.

375
00:20:01,380 --> 00:20:05,300
It's okay that you're thinking differently or that you're thinking about your career

376
00:20:05,300 --> 00:20:07,900
differently.

377
00:20:07,900 --> 00:20:12,060
So yes, go talk to people who are nearing the end of their careers because what they

378
00:20:12,060 --> 00:20:14,140
give you is perspective.

379
00:20:14,140 --> 00:20:18,980
When you come back from their perspective giving or their perspective taking to your

380
00:20:18,980 --> 00:20:24,320
small neck of the woods, it changes the way you see your current experience.

381
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:27,820
And it helps you do what is number five.

382
00:20:27,820 --> 00:20:33,260
Number five for me is listening to that still small voice.

383
00:20:33,260 --> 00:20:39,660
You know, when all is said and done, there is a voice and it's a voice inside you.

384
00:20:39,660 --> 00:20:45,940
I want to say it's your voice and I wouldn't be wrong to say it's your voice, but I want

385
00:20:45,940 --> 00:20:47,500
to say it's bigger than your voice.

386
00:20:47,500 --> 00:20:51,740
And the reason I want to say it's bigger than your voice is that it's a voice you only hear

387
00:20:51,740 --> 00:20:53,900
when you're really listening.

388
00:20:53,900 --> 00:20:56,320
You only hear it when you're really listening.

389
00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,460
It is such a quiet, still, small voice.

390
00:20:59,460 --> 00:21:00,460
It does not yell.

391
00:21:00,460 --> 00:21:01,460
It does not scream.

392
00:21:01,460 --> 00:21:02,660
It does not jostle.

393
00:21:02,660 --> 00:21:09,420
It will not fight you, but it's there and it's sure and it's steady and it's sound

394
00:21:09,420 --> 00:21:12,820
is pretty clear, but it doesn't speak a language.

395
00:21:12,820 --> 00:21:14,560
It's not English.

396
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:19,220
It's not French, but it's a language of peace.

397
00:21:19,220 --> 00:21:25,700
Actually, it's just this sense of, yeah, that's what I'm supposed to do, but you don't hear

398
00:21:25,700 --> 00:21:29,420
it until you make space for it.

399
00:21:29,420 --> 00:21:36,820
You don't until you're quiet, until you quiet every voice and you're like, okay, checking.

400
00:21:36,820 --> 00:21:37,820
How do I feel?

401
00:21:37,820 --> 00:21:40,220
What do I want to do?

402
00:21:40,220 --> 00:21:43,660
And I have to say it's hard to get to the place of hearing this voice because you really

403
00:21:43,660 --> 00:21:45,100
got to be still.

404
00:21:45,100 --> 00:21:48,100
And it's not just still like I'm just sitting still.

405
00:21:48,100 --> 00:21:54,220
It's stillness of like, hmm, moving aside everybody's opinions.

406
00:21:54,220 --> 00:21:59,860
I have all of this information I've gathered through my conversations over the time and

407
00:21:59,860 --> 00:22:05,700
the course of my career, but it's really saying, okay, let's push every thought aside, every

408
00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:08,900
perspective aside.

409
00:22:08,900 --> 00:22:11,940
Let's move it all aside.

410
00:22:11,940 --> 00:22:16,700
Now what do I want to do?

411
00:22:16,700 --> 00:22:23,260
For some of us, this voice has been pretty much squished for years and maybe not by us,

412
00:22:23,260 --> 00:22:26,020
maybe by other well-meaning people who are like, nope, this is the way you go.

413
00:22:26,020 --> 00:22:27,580
Oh, I don't care that you care about that.

414
00:22:27,580 --> 00:22:28,700
This is what I told you to do.

415
00:22:28,700 --> 00:22:29,700
I'm your senior.

416
00:22:29,700 --> 00:22:30,700
You should do this.

417
00:22:30,700 --> 00:22:35,580
For many of us, fear and anxiety and shame have kept us from this voice.

418
00:22:35,580 --> 00:22:38,340
And so it takes us a long time to reconnect.

419
00:22:38,340 --> 00:22:41,020
For some of us, we need help.

420
00:22:41,020 --> 00:22:42,140
Thank God for coaches.

421
00:22:42,140 --> 00:22:43,140
I love them.

422
00:22:43,140 --> 00:22:44,140
I'm one.

423
00:22:44,140 --> 00:22:47,700
You should come catch with me.

424
00:22:47,700 --> 00:22:53,820
But what they do, what coaches do, what we do is we create space for you to hear that

425
00:22:53,820 --> 00:22:55,460
voice.

426
00:22:55,460 --> 00:23:00,620
And part of how we create space is we ask you powerful questions.

427
00:23:00,620 --> 00:23:02,940
And then you have to answer them.

428
00:23:02,940 --> 00:23:06,460
Well, you don't have to, but you do.

429
00:23:06,460 --> 00:23:10,660
And those powerful questions cause you to do this thing where you're literally pulling

430
00:23:10,660 --> 00:23:17,660
the thoughts out of yourself out into the open, where you can more easily hear.

431
00:23:17,660 --> 00:23:19,740
I wanted to say where you can more easily see.

432
00:23:19,740 --> 00:23:23,940
It's not really a thing you see, but it is a thing you see with your, I guess, inner

433
00:23:23,940 --> 00:23:24,940
eyes.

434
00:23:24,940 --> 00:23:26,900
You perceive it better.

435
00:23:26,900 --> 00:23:32,580
Because all of a sudden someone created space for you and they allowed you to bring it out

436
00:23:32,580 --> 00:23:38,300
of you and evaluate it like you would do other things logically.

437
00:23:38,300 --> 00:23:43,620
And so for some of us, we get that experience to some extent in therapy, right?

438
00:23:43,620 --> 00:23:45,540
Where we're pulling things out of us.

439
00:23:45,540 --> 00:23:49,380
And because we're pulling it out of us, we're recognizing what the answer is.

440
00:23:49,380 --> 00:23:51,460
It's like, oh, this is so obvious to me now.

441
00:23:51,460 --> 00:23:52,780
I now know.

442
00:23:52,780 --> 00:23:56,740
And all because somebody created space for us.

443
00:23:56,740 --> 00:24:00,260
For some of us, maybe we have a friend who does that.

444
00:24:00,260 --> 00:24:04,540
There are many, many people who don't.

445
00:24:04,540 --> 00:24:09,100
For some of us, maybe it's a sister, but someone who just gets you.

446
00:24:09,100 --> 00:24:11,620
And there are people who get you naturally and there are people who study how to get

447
00:24:11,620 --> 00:24:12,620
you.

448
00:24:12,620 --> 00:24:18,340
They create space for you so you can pull out those thoughts that are muddled.

449
00:24:18,340 --> 00:24:23,460
And when you pull them out, you lay them out in front of you and you're like, oh, that's

450
00:24:23,460 --> 00:24:24,460
it.

451
00:24:24,460 --> 00:24:27,940
That's exactly what I should do.

452
00:24:27,940 --> 00:24:29,900
And I want to invite you to that place.

453
00:24:29,900 --> 00:24:33,700
I'm going to invite you to that place because it's the place of inner wisdom.

454
00:24:33,700 --> 00:24:37,900
It's the place of the sage.

455
00:24:37,900 --> 00:24:40,060
If you've read, gosh, what's this guy's name?

456
00:24:40,060 --> 00:24:44,580
The PQ, Positive Intelligence by Shozard Chamin.

457
00:24:44,580 --> 00:24:46,020
He talks about the sage.

458
00:24:46,020 --> 00:24:47,940
The sage knows the answer.

459
00:24:47,940 --> 00:24:51,660
Yes, I'm talking about the place of the sage.

460
00:24:51,660 --> 00:24:55,580
The wisdom that's buried deep inside you that's not superficial.

461
00:24:55,580 --> 00:24:57,620
That really you have to go after.

462
00:24:57,620 --> 00:24:59,180
You have to go searching after.

463
00:24:59,180 --> 00:25:06,620
Having gathered all the wisdom from so many people, it's time to be still and to hear

464
00:25:06,620 --> 00:25:08,860
the voice that's inside you.

465
00:25:08,860 --> 00:25:11,100
What do you really want to do?

466
00:25:11,100 --> 00:25:12,400
Here's the thing about that voice.

467
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:16,260
Sometimes it tells you things that feel crazy to your logical mind.

468
00:25:16,260 --> 00:25:21,260
But the more you sit with the thought, the more you know that that voice is real.

469
00:25:21,260 --> 00:25:22,260
It is true.

470
00:25:22,260 --> 00:25:25,420
It is telling you something you should pay attention to.

471
00:25:25,420 --> 00:25:27,980
You may struggle with it in your logical mind.

472
00:25:27,980 --> 00:25:31,420
For example, maybe the voice is like, maybe it's time to give it patient care.

473
00:25:31,420 --> 00:25:42,900
You're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

474
00:25:42,900 --> 00:25:47,020
Many times it will be something that's radical like that where your mind is like, no, no,

475
00:25:47,020 --> 00:25:48,220
no, I'm very logical.

476
00:25:48,220 --> 00:25:49,860
I spent 20 years of my life.

477
00:25:49,860 --> 00:25:53,140
I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

478
00:25:53,140 --> 00:26:00,020
But it's there and it's waiting for you to stop resisting and to listen and to listen

479
00:26:00,020 --> 00:26:01,020
again.

480
00:26:01,020 --> 00:26:03,500
And it's not just about listening.

481
00:26:03,500 --> 00:26:06,860
It's about honoring what you hear.

482
00:26:06,860 --> 00:26:09,820
It's about honoring what you hear.

483
00:26:09,820 --> 00:26:16,540
And the reality of our lives is that for every time we dishonor what we hear, we hurt ourselves.

484
00:26:16,540 --> 00:26:23,340
Before we finally come back, months, maybe years later, you're like, yeah, yeah, I should

485
00:26:23,340 --> 00:26:24,340
have listened.

486
00:26:24,340 --> 00:26:25,660
I should have listened.

487
00:26:25,660 --> 00:26:26,700
You've probably had that experience.

488
00:26:26,700 --> 00:26:27,700
I certainly have.

489
00:26:27,700 --> 00:26:33,540
Where you just telling you something and you're like, no, no, no, no, no, that can't be real.

490
00:26:33,540 --> 00:26:37,300
And then later on you're like, I had a feeling.

491
00:26:37,300 --> 00:26:39,420
It's that feeling I'm talking about.

492
00:26:39,420 --> 00:26:44,080
The feeling I want you to listen for and the feeling I want you to respect as you're making

493
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,940
decisions in your career.

494
00:26:46,940 --> 00:26:50,700
And this is a place where you come off the box checking ladder, you come off the climbing

495
00:26:50,700 --> 00:26:52,740
ladder and you sit down.

496
00:26:52,740 --> 00:26:56,980
It's kind of like deep dark in the dungeons, but it's not really the dungeons.

497
00:26:56,980 --> 00:26:57,980
It's better than that.

498
00:26:57,980 --> 00:27:05,020
It's like the valley, the beautiful green valley where the streams are just gently,

499
00:27:05,020 --> 00:27:10,220
gently rolling by and you hear the trickle of the water.

500
00:27:10,220 --> 00:27:12,340
It's not noisy.

501
00:27:12,340 --> 00:27:15,100
It's quiet in a different kind of way.

502
00:27:15,100 --> 00:27:17,020
That's the space I'm talking about.

503
00:27:17,020 --> 00:27:18,580
The space of beauty.

504
00:27:18,580 --> 00:27:23,620
The space where blue meets green and creates all sorts of beautiful colors, purples and

505
00:27:23,620 --> 00:27:25,620
yellows and reds.

506
00:27:25,620 --> 00:27:28,260
That's so rich and so beautiful.

507
00:27:28,260 --> 00:27:30,300
It's that space.

508
00:27:30,300 --> 00:27:34,380
Maybe what you need to do now is close your eyes and imagine that space.

509
00:27:34,380 --> 00:27:39,620
That space of a deep knowing of what the inner you is really saying.

510
00:27:39,620 --> 00:27:45,020
And I want to say that your major life transitions, your major decisions need to come to this

511
00:27:45,020 --> 00:27:46,020
moment.

512
00:27:46,020 --> 00:27:51,460
But once you've gathered all the information, it's time to now decide what direction you

513
00:27:51,460 --> 00:27:52,460
go in.

514
00:27:52,460 --> 00:27:56,780
And I want to invite you to trust yourself.

515
00:27:56,780 --> 00:27:57,780
Trust the voice.

516
00:27:57,780 --> 00:27:59,780
It is you.

517
00:27:59,780 --> 00:28:04,860
It's bigger than you and it is never wrong.

518
00:28:04,860 --> 00:28:11,460
So those are five powerful conversations that I have talked about today and I told you I

519
00:28:11,460 --> 00:28:12,460
was talking to myself.

520
00:28:12,460 --> 00:28:15,180
But I hope that this was helpful to you.

521
00:28:15,180 --> 00:28:18,620
I'm going to recap these five powerful conversations.

522
00:28:18,620 --> 00:28:22,140
One is the conversations you have with your early career mentors.

523
00:28:22,140 --> 00:28:25,580
Pretty narrow, pretty focused, all about the career.

524
00:28:25,580 --> 00:28:29,060
The second is with your peer mentors where you can expand it a little bit and really

525
00:28:29,060 --> 00:28:32,700
talk about the stuff.

526
00:28:32,700 --> 00:28:37,540
The third is with your colleagues on the edge, the ones who didn't leave yet, who haven't

527
00:28:37,540 --> 00:28:43,540
left yet, but who have a very different way of doing life in the academy.

528
00:28:43,540 --> 00:28:47,360
And the fourth is people nearing the end of their careers because they give you that kind

529
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:52,780
of perspective that you may not be thinking about, but that will be helpful when you get

530
00:28:52,780 --> 00:28:56,580
to number five, the place of the still small voice.

531
00:28:56,580 --> 00:29:02,620
The inner you, the powerful voice that really knows what the next step is.

532
00:29:02,620 --> 00:29:06,940
I invite you to that space and I hope that you'll discover it and I hope that you will

533
00:29:06,940 --> 00:29:12,680
honor it and move forward with boldness and courage, even when it's telling you something

534
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,940
that feels a little bit odd and weird.

535
00:29:14,940 --> 00:29:15,940
All right.

536
00:29:15,940 --> 00:29:18,780
Thank you so much for taking time to listen.

537
00:29:18,780 --> 00:29:19,940
Remember we are always here.

538
00:29:19,940 --> 00:29:22,860
I am always here, available to coach you.

539
00:29:22,860 --> 00:29:27,920
If you are interested in setting up a coaching conversation call, please send me a message.

540
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:28,920
I am on Facebook.

541
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:29,920
I'm on Instagram.

542
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:34,140
I'm on where am I on most often LinkedIn.

543
00:29:34,140 --> 00:29:35,140
Definitely find me there.

544
00:29:35,140 --> 00:29:39,460
I'd love to talk with you and love to see how I can connect with you and be a blessing

545
00:29:39,460 --> 00:29:40,460
to you.

546
00:29:40,460 --> 00:29:41,460
All right.

547
00:29:41,460 --> 00:29:42,460
It's been a pleasure to talk with you today.

548
00:29:42,460 --> 00:29:43,460
Thank you so much for listening.

549
00:29:43,460 --> 00:29:48,140
I look forward to talking with you again the next time on the Clinician Researcher Podcast.

550
00:29:48,140 --> 00:29:56,020
Thank you for listening.

551
00:29:56,020 --> 00:30:01,420
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast where academic

552
00:30:01,420 --> 00:30:06,820
clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they

553
00:30:06,820 --> 00:30:08,220
have a mentor.

554
00:30:08,220 --> 00:30:14,340
If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.

555
00:30:14,340 --> 00:30:16,060
Someone else needs to hear it.

556
00:30:16,060 --> 00:30:20,140
So take a minute right now and share it.

557
00:30:20,140 --> 00:30:25,580
As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation

558
00:30:25,580 --> 00:30:31,540
of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.