Redefining career success with Dr. Alfred Lee

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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills

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to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.

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When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find

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that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research

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program.

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Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.

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However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.

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For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians

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the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.

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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast.

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I'm Toyosi Onwuemene, your host.

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I'm super excited to be here today because I have a really great special guest, Dr. Alfred

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Lee, who's going to introduce himself in a minute.

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But I want to tell you that he is a program director of an esteemed Hemong Fellowship

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program and is just really here to give us insights that can help fellows succeed in

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the fellow to faculty transition.

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So without further ado, I'm going to ask him to introduce himself.

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Alfred, welcome to the program.

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Thank you for being here.

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Oh, thank you so much, Teyasi.

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I'm really honored to be here.

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And it's exciting what you're doing with this podcast and the conversations that you're

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having.

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So once again, my name is Alfred Lee.

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I'm a classical hematologist.

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And as you know, because we're in the same field, that is the focus of the focus of studies

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on blood diseases that are not cancer primarily.

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And I also have a big focus in medical education.

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And with it, issues of mentorship and career development come up naturally in my role as

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a fellowship program director.

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Thank you, Alfred.

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I want to thank you so much for being here because I feel like we need so much of your

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perspective.

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And I think fellows need that too.

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And without further ado, I'm going to ask you, just you've been doing this for a while.

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And I want to ask, how can fellows set themselves up for success as clinician scientists?

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We talk about this, you know, having people become clinician scientists as the Holy Grail.

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And it seems to be really hard.

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How can fellows set themselves up to win?

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Yeah.

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So this is in many ways one of many million dollar questions.

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And I think all of us, particularly, you know, those of us who do medical education primarily

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are really invested in trying to understand, first off, how we identify the fellows who

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really want academic careers and are committed to this and will do well in academic careers.

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And then secondly, how do we get them there?

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And then thirdly, how do we ensure that when they leave the nest out of fellowship, that

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they'll be positioned to continue to have success in their academic careers?

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So the thing we've always said, and I think most of the literature, certainly outside

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of hematology, but emerging within hematology says is that it's all about mentorship, right?

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Mentorship, mentorship, mentorship, mentorship is key.

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Having a good research project during fellowship is also key because that's really where trainees

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learn their chops, so to speak, and learn the methodologies that they need when they

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enter in these, you know, what we like to call career defining projects within fellowship

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that will then, you know, hopefully lead to pathways in academic medicine after they finish.

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But oftentimes, and usually the good projects come with good mentorship setups.

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And so I think as a result of that, you know, there's been a lot of discussion lately about

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what good mentorship is and what the elements are there.

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As you may know, you know, ASH, American Society of Hematology, like recently did a big mentorship

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summit in DC headquarters that a number of us were part of.

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And the roots of this came from, you know, a study that we all sort of participated in,

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which was looking at the hematology workforce in the US for over a several year period.

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And what we found leading up to the pandemic and then afterwards was that, you know, the

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numbers and the percentages of fellows in hematology programs who wanted to do classical

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hematology was horrifically low.

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It was like 5% and it did not change in like 20 years.

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And so ASH started doing a lot of initiatives to try to improve recruitment and retention

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in classical hematology.

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And with that came this idea of trying to get a bunch of minds together to talk about

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mentorship.

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And so there was some very interesting things that came out of that discussion recently

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that are probably relevant to some of what, you know, you and I can discuss.

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So one is that mentorship, and this is built based on the literature and also on practice,

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mentorship has both a career development function and a psychosocial function.

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And you know, I think in academic medicine, we often emphasize the former a lot, right?

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We tell people, yeah, you got to find a research mentor, get in with them, get on their projects,

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you know, start to build your projects, apply for your grants, et cetera, et cetera, et

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cetera.

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But it's important not to overlook the psychosocial support function, because one, you know, you

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can't really have a great mentorship setup unless both of these domains are being satisfied,

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because that's where I think we see fellows have the greatest success long term.

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A second thing that sort of emerged from this recent mentorship summit that Ash conducted

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was that although we still emphasize a lot the traditional diet of mentorship, so, you

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know, one mentee and one mentor, increasingly, I think a lot of fields outside of hematology

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are sort of looking at mentorship networks.

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So you bring in different faculty and different role models from the peer stage all the way

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to the faculty and beyond, who can sort of be part of your whole mentorship tree and

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help you succeed.

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And then I think just one more thing I think that's important to think about, and again,

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plays in this whole aspect of mentorship, is that, you know, we have a lot, we put a

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lot of emphasis on discussion about finding a good mentor and what the qualities are in

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a good mentor, and that's sort of its own discussion.

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But I think we also don't emphasize enough that in order for good mentorship to work,

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it has to be a two-way street.

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It's really a relationship, right?

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And in order for any relationship to succeed, both parties or all parties have to be equally

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invested.

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And so there's a certain component, I think, of success as a trainee that then carries

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over in the post-trainee realm, and that's that the mentees also need to learn how to

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be good mentees, right?

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They need to learn, you know, what are, or how, what is their role in the relationship

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and what do they need to bring to the table and what kind of work do they sort of need

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to do on their own in order to gain the skills they need to be successful during fellowship

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for their future academic career.

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So you know, I think the short answer to your question is mentorship, mentorship, mentorship.

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But how we get there, I think, has a lot of nuance, and it's very exciting, but also challenging

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to think about how we can improve that whole experience for the trainees.

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I love that.

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Thank you so much, because you talked about so many things.

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I think one of the things that really spoke to me was about the psychosocial component

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of mentoring, and you may get great academic mentoring, but that piece is missing, then

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fellows may feel like they're not even getting what they want to, even though they may be

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getting great academic development.

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And so that's so important.

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I love also what you talk about with the whole focus on the diet of the mentoring relationship,

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but really thinking about mentoring networks.

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And it's kind of, it's not traditional.

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We've thought about mentoring in the traditional way, as you talked about, of like a one-man

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mentor, one mentee.

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And so how do we get out of that?

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How do we encourage fellows to start thinking about these networks?

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Yeah, it's a great question.

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And I have to be totally candid.

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When I was exposed to this idea of mentorship networks, it was actually a very new concept

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to me.

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When I was a fellow, so it doesn't feel like that long ago, but it actually was kind of

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a long time ago, but it was like 15 years ago.

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I used to tell people, I have three mentors, right?

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I literally say this all the time.

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So one mentor was the person I did my research with.

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And then the second mentor was the person I wanted to be.

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And then the third mentor was the person that I would gab on the phone with for like two

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hours every week and just tell this person my deepest dark secrets and what I wanted

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to do and get their advice.

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But in the midst of that, I always knew the responsibilities that each one had.

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And I did view one of them as not more important than the other, but one of them, I really

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if I had to put my money down, I would say was my true primary mentor.

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And by that, what I meant is I had full faith that if I succeeded, this person would feel

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that they succeeded.

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And if I failed, then they would feel like they failed.

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So the reason I say that is to say that I think when we think about mentorship networks,

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a few things come to mind.

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So one is that it's important for trainees to think about all the different domains that

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they need in mentorship.

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So there is going to be someone or some people who fill that traditional research domain,

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but there are also going to be people who fill that role modeling domain.

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And then there are going to be some who fulfill sort of the life advice domain, right?

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Sort of mirroring the three different domains that were important to me.

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But a second aspect to this is that I think it's still important.

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And what I'm about to say, I think is a little bit controversial still, so not everybody

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agrees with me on this, but I still think it's important even as we expand mentorship

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networks and go away from the traditional diet, I still think it is important to identify

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at least one person who really breathes and dies by you.

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I think that's important because what people have always said, and I think there's some

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truth to this, is that if you have a group of mentors, if you have dual mentors, if you

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have triple mentors, it's great because everyone fills different functions.

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But at the end of the day, if no one feels accountable for you, then that's not a good

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setup either, right?

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And maybe that's where some of the psychosocial portion of this comes in.

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So it's a long-winded way of saying that I think part of moving away from the diet into

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a mentorship network is to identify the needs that specific mentees require.

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But I think another portion of it is to still remember though that effective mentorship

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still needs someone senior to deliver.

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And if you lose that, then you kind of lose one of the most important essences of mentorship,

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I think.

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Now, that's really awesome, and thank you for shedding light on that.

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I mean, I think it is so important.

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It's that every mentee has different aspects of their lives.

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And so to think that one person is going to be able to meet all those needs is a little

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bit unrealistic and maybe too much of an expectation for one person.

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But I want to go back to something you talked about, and that is about the mentee needing

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to be ready to be a good mentee.

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How do fellows learn to be great mentees?

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How do they get that education, and what are some insights you would give us to what does

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a great mentee look like?

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Yeah, this is a great, great question.

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And part of it is that in real world terms, as you know, as all of us in academic medicine

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and education know, there's a huge hidden curriculum that we don't teach anybody, but

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people just pick up.

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And it's the same everywhere, right?

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So how do trainees, how do fellows learn to be good mentees?

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They learn by talking to their other co-fellows and former graduates and sort of young junior

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faculty.

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And they learn sort of the skills and the life patterns, and they pick those up from

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other stories, and then they internalize them.

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And on the one hand, I think it's great that this sort of hidden curriculum evolves organically

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because then most fellows end up learning what is required to be a good mentee.

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But the truth is that I think we do a big disservice to a huge portion of our fellows

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by not teaching them in a formal fashion what is mentorship and what are your expectations

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as a mentee, right?

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And again, as you were saying a little bit earlier, I think we all know the expectations

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of mentors, right?

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The mentors should be people who are seasoned in their research or at least very effective

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at their research.

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They're good at analyzing and giving advice, but there's a lot of soft skills in mentorship

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too that mentors should have, right?

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They should be accessible.

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They should be personable.

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They should care about you, right?

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They should make you feel like you're valued.

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But on the mentee end, even though we don't talk about it, I think the skills that people

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identify that come through with good mentees are, number one, good mentees need to be

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invested in the process of mentorship.

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They need to know when to take initiative, to move projects forward and to move conversations

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forward.

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They need to be responsible.

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They need to feel a sense of responsibility for both the projects they're working on and

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also the relationship.

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They also need to be committed to developing the relationship and the project.

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I think what we sometimes see, and it's not really anyone's fault, obviously, but what

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we sometimes see in unsuccessful mentee mentor pairings is that one person is just not as

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invested as the other.

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And although frequently it ends up being a mentor that's not invested, a lot of times

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it ends up being a mentee that has sort of unrealistic expectations.

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So sometimes a mentee will enter into a relationship with a very well-established and reputable

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mentor, but then walk away with sort of, quote unquote, nothing to show, right?

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No research productivity, no papers, no grants, nothing, and no real life advice.

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But sometimes it's because the mentee sort of thought that everything would be handed

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on a platter because this mentor is so well-seasoned and well-regarded.

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But instead, in order to make that relationship work, maybe the mentee had to sit down with

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the mentor and learn what's expected of me, what's my role, what part do I need to sort

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of do in order to build this relationship and the project.

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So I think you're right.

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As much as we talk about mentors having expectations, mentees also need to have the same expectations

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of themselves, even though they differ.

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Thank you for talking about the hidden curriculum.

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I mean, that's a big thing.

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And you know what's interesting?

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For many people who are self-aware, they're able to master the hidden curriculum in short

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order, but people do struggle with the hidden curriculum.

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I wonder, and this is kind of like really asking for your opinion, how do we make the

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hidden curriculum more explicit?

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Yeah.

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And you know, this is such a fun question to ask because if we look at what comes out

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of the hidden curriculum, right?

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First off, what is the hidden curriculum?

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It's the stuff we don't teach that everyone sees and knows and internalizes.

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And some of the hidden curriculum is very, very bad, right?

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That's where we all learn bias.

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That's unconscious bias, right?

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That's contributed to so many things that we're trying to now combat actively.

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But some of the hidden curriculum is really good, you know?

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And as an example, I would say near peer mentorship is one of these concepts, right?

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That's emerging now where anyone at any point in the training pathway and beyond can identify

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someone who's just a little bit senior, who is reliable and who's doing things that the

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mentee wants to do and can impart those same sort of life skills.

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So I think the hidden curriculum includes some good aspects like near peer mentorship.

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And so in terms of how do we optimize the hidden curriculum and make it a formal curriculum,

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part of it is, of course, introducing mentees early on to these sorts of concepts.

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But I think part of it is also adopting some of these organic structures and seeing if

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they can benefit from sort of an institutional or systemic structure.

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So as an example, right, in our fellowship program and I think many other fellowship

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programs as well, you know, we sort of recognize that the fellows when they come in are going

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to latch on to the second year fellows and the third year fellows.

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So you know, every fellow in our program and many others too will get like a buddy system,

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right?

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And the buddy is initially supposed to just help the first year fellows get acquainted

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with fellowship and sort of go through the nuts and bolts.

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But a lot of times the buddy system ends up delving into issues of real life and also

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research, you know, mentorship and so forth.

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You know, some of the fellows have reached out to their buddy to talk about starting

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a new family, you know, where do they get support for this?

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Where do they get childcare?

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You know, how do they find a mentor?

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You know, who's a good mentor?

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And so I think, you know, we were doing this sort of buddy system for a long time without

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even realizing that it actually is near peer mentoring.

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And I think things like that, it's worth asking the question, do we want to take something

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like that and actually make it a formal thing?

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Or do we value the organic nature of it that we have to find the right balance where that

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we as a program, we don't overstep and make something that's organic and wonderful into

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something that's very bureaucratic.

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I think that that's sort of the trick here to try to make these bits of the informal

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curriculum better.

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No, that's a really great point because the organic nature of it kind of helps it to be

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a safe environment where people feel like they can ask these personal questions and

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turn it into a bureaucratic thing, mate.

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They change the nature of it and maybe it won't be as helpful.

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So there's definitely a fine balance.

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But really, I think one of the points that I feel like is so important that you make

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that I want to just reiterate is just peer mentoring is important and that people, as

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they're thinking about mentoring or mentorship networks, they should be thinking about peers

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as part of that network as well.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Oh, sorry, go ahead.

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No, I was going to say, do you want to speak more about that?

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Yeah.

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And I think what you were saying, Toci, is so important nowadays because along these

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same lines, we're actually just having discussions about this at our institution.

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Along the same lines, we're starting to have discussions that senior fellows and faculty

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need to be lumped together and viewed the same.

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And I know this is a little bit of a controversial concept and not everyone at our medical center

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necessarily agrees, but this is literally fresh in our minds.

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And I've heard a lot of senior leadership talk about this idea.

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And the more I think about it, the more I feel like it actually makes sense because,

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again, for academic fellowship programs that are training largely academic physicians,

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even though we have this true barrier and crossover between being a trainee versus being

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an attending physician, the career development arc starts early.

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It starts in fellowship.

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And the elements of success within fellowship end up laying the groundwork for later success

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as a young faculty member.

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And so I do feel that senior fellows and junior faculty probably do represent the same continuum

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and need to be thought of similarly with the same sort of support structures.

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And I think part of that, then, is this concept of near peer mentoring.

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Because when you're a fellow, in your first year or second year or so forth, you look

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to the senior fellows.

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And then when you transition to faculty, you start to look to your peer faculty and some

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of the younger faculty.

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Most of us, when we're junior faculty, we're not going to immediately go to our chair with

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every single problem we have and talk to them for advice.

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We're going to go to our colleagues, the ones who have been at our institution for just

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a little bit longer, and sort of reach out to them and get their insight.

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So I think the near peer mentoring approach, which is so important and begins in fellowship,

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is the same thing that transitions when one goes into a junior faculty role.

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And we should probably be thinking about these as one continuum.

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It's definitely an important one to have.

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I love what you were talking about.

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And I actually want to take a step back and just talk about who succeeds in this clinician

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scientist thing, right?

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We bring so many people through.

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And we talked about earlier, it's 50-50.

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But if you could go back and look at your fellows at the beginning or even at any time

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during the program, who succeeds?

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Yeah.

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So this is a loaded question.

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Everything you're asking is loaded and so important.

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And I'm glad that we're dissecting this because I feel, and I'm assuming that you do too,

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and others in active medicine, that the definition of this is dramatically changing as it needs

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to, right?

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So I mean, as you know, because we all sort of went through this together, historically,

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the idea was that if you're in a fellow in an academic program, then you're going to

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go for an academic job.

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And what is an academic job?

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It's basically emerging as a clinician investigator or as an investigator sometimes.

336
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Clinician investigator or lab investigator, right?

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And it used to be that everyone was both a clinician and a lab investigator.

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Then they sort of diverged and both became sort of equally valid.

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But with the complexity of medicine now, with real issues in the pipeline of recruitment

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and retention, with real issues of not having actually a pitifully low number of underrepresented

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minorities in throughout academic medicine, especially in hematology, with real issues

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of access to care, so many patients not having access to a physician, much less one who specializes

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in the treatments that we do.

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I think the old paradigms have to completely come tumbling down.

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And as a result, it makes it both really difficult but also really exciting to try to redefine

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what it means to be successful, right?

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So as an example, in the olden days, if a fellow tried to go into a lab, maybe when

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you and I were in fellowship, a fellow tried to go into a lab and didn't publish their

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nature paper or their cell paper, then that's a failure, right?

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But nowadays, that might not be, right?

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Because we have fellows who come into our program like extremely well-versed and experienced

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in basic science research.

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And then when they go through fellowship, either they fall in love with something else

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or they fall in love with patient care or their project just doesn't work out, but they

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realize that all the skills they learned in the lab are actually really useful and can

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be morphed into, say, phase one trials or clinical trials, right, or explaining these

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sorts of very complex therapies to patients who ordinarily wouldn't have access to a

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trial, but the fellow and the trainee then becomes a facilitator to help promote health

359
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equity and access, right?

360
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So I think now the definition doesn't really exist the way that it did before.

361
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And it gets back to sort of the domains of mentorship.

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There's a career development portion, but there's also a psychosocial portion.

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And I would say the same thing about our overall career development in general, right?

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There are certain benchmarks that we all set for ourselves, and we try to achieve them,

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and sometimes we do, and sometimes they don't.

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But there's also a personal sense of satisfaction and destiny even and fulfillment.

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And I think those are things that although we expect fellows, even while they're interviewing

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for our program to know, in reality, they don't know, and many times they don't know

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until very late in their training and sometimes beyond.

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And so it's a long way of saying that I don't know what the right definition is, but I think

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we have to take into account overall life experiences and constantly ask our fellows

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and encourage them to ask themselves, are you happy?

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Are you doing what you want?

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Do you feel like your purpose is being served?

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Because I think if we include those elements into traditional benchmarks of success, then

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we'll find that, number one, we're actually doing a good job overall, all of our programs

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are and all of our fellows are.

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And then number two, I think we'll also find that that's improving the overall experience

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of healthcare for everyone.

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I love it.

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So it's expanding the definition of success.

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And the truth is that the definition of success was always expanded, but as long as we were

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defining it narrowly, we could find the fellows who succeeded and those who didn't.

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And so I do love what you talk about because fulfillment is important in the psychosocial

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aspects as well.

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And then at the end, the program thinks the fellow is successful, but the fellow thinks

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that fellow is successful as well.

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Absolutely.

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And even like operationally at the institutional level, again, even though we have historically

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had this idea that there are academic physicians and then there are our clinician, and the

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academic physicians are the ones who do some type of research and the clinicians see patients.

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I mean, as we all know in oncology and also in hematology, a huge part of what we do is

393
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ambulatory care in the community.

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And within oncology and malignant hematology and even to a certain extent in classical

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hematology, a lot of the clinical trials enrollments are happening in the community with community

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physicians.

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And then even at academic centers, we're all recognizing that there's a tremendous need

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for pure clinicians within academic centers, especially in classical hematology.

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I'm sure Duke is the same way in many other places, but anyway, at Yale, all across our

400
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cancer center network, 50% of the volume of patients that are seen by attending physicians

401
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is classical inpatients.

402
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And every center has that.

403
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And so we have a real need for not just researchers in classical hematology, but also clinicians.

404
00:24:46,820 --> 00:24:50,900
We're super excited because we actually just hired one of our senior fellows to be a pure

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classical hematology clinician, but with an academic appointment on our academic clinician

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track.

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So, and basically I just say that to say that I think that these definitions of fellow success

408
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are going hand in hand, these redefinitions of fellow success are going hand in hand with

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redefining what it means to be an academic clinician and even an academic investigator.

410
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I appreciate that perspective.

411
00:25:16,740 --> 00:25:17,740
Thank you.

412
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It's that so much is changing.

413
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And I think in medicine, sometimes we're slow to change, but ultimately the reality is that

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we're preparing the fellows for the new world that they're entering and the new world they're

415
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entering is a different one that we entered 12, 13, 14 years ago.

416
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I love how you said that because that's exactly what it is.

417
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And I think we have to keep reminding ourselves that this sort of redefinition and reassessment

418
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and change is good because we need it, because that's what our patients need.

419
00:25:45,340 --> 00:25:47,940
That's what the field of science needs, right?

420
00:25:47,940 --> 00:25:48,940
Absolutely.

421
00:25:48,940 --> 00:25:49,940
Absolutely.

422
00:25:49,940 --> 00:25:50,940
I love it.

423
00:25:50,940 --> 00:25:52,060
You shared so many great gems.

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I would say that as we're wrapping up, what is one thing you want to leave with Earth

425
00:25:57,540 --> 00:25:58,540
listeners?

426
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What do you want to say that perhaps needs to be emphasized or hasn't been said yet?

427
00:26:04,300 --> 00:26:06,780
Let's see, what should we emphasize?

428
00:26:06,780 --> 00:26:13,080
So mentorship still to me remains the most important aspect, even though the definitions

429
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,320
of mentorship are changing.

430
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:22,660
I think we need to think about ways to formalize a lot of the organic nature of mentorship,

431
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kind of like you and I talked about, while still preserving some of the serendipity that

432
00:26:27,460 --> 00:26:30,340
can happen with a good mentorship pairing.

433
00:26:30,340 --> 00:26:33,780
And I think we're all sort of struggling with how to do that.

434
00:26:33,780 --> 00:26:37,360
A lot of programs, including our own, create mentorship committees, right?

435
00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:40,860
When fellows come in, they get paired to faculty for career development advice.

436
00:26:40,860 --> 00:26:43,900
And sometimes those pairings work, sometimes they don't.

437
00:26:43,900 --> 00:26:47,620
But we also know that when we remove that from the equation, then suddenly the fellows

438
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want it.

439
00:26:48,620 --> 00:26:50,280
And it's the same for the junior faculty.

440
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:55,140
So how do you create these structures, but then allow for the flexibility for that organic

441
00:26:55,140 --> 00:26:57,900
nature to happen, I think is important.

442
00:26:57,900 --> 00:27:01,700
I think another thing that we need to think about, and again, this ultimately goes back

443
00:27:01,700 --> 00:27:08,100
to, again, success of a fellow as an academic clinician afterwards, is how do we and should

444
00:27:08,100 --> 00:27:13,700
we, and I think the answer is yes, but how do we and should we be incentivizing faculty

445
00:27:13,700 --> 00:27:15,540
to mentor, right?

446
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Because a lot of faculty take on mentorship just out of goodwill, and also because we

447
00:27:20,300 --> 00:27:23,500
got good mentors and we want to pay that back.

448
00:27:23,500 --> 00:27:29,000
But as medicine becomes more complex, as financial reimbursement models become increasingly a

449
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:36,660
big driver in academic hiring even, how do we start to systemically and institutionally

450
00:27:36,660 --> 00:27:42,740
incentivize mentorship so that all of us will want to be mentors and realize that when we

451
00:27:42,740 --> 00:27:46,980
invest in people the way they invested in us, then that's how we continue the field

452
00:27:46,980 --> 00:27:48,860
and we all benefit.

453
00:27:48,860 --> 00:27:53,060
So I think those are two concepts, of course, they're beyond our own discussion, but I think

454
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they tie back to what we can do to increase the likelihood that our fellows will be successful,

455
00:28:00,100 --> 00:28:04,140
because I think we have to not just invest in mentorship, but also invest in the future

456
00:28:04,140 --> 00:28:06,460
of mentorship, whatever that means.

457
00:28:06,460 --> 00:28:13,820
I love it, when you talk about the serendipity, it's almost like someone needs to come up

458
00:28:13,820 --> 00:28:20,300
with a mentoring matchmaking service, kind of like dating services exist right now.

459
00:28:20,300 --> 00:28:23,060
Create the structure and then watch for the chemistry.

460
00:28:23,060 --> 00:28:25,940
Absolutely, yes, yes.

461
00:28:25,940 --> 00:28:28,680
Some of us have talked about apps, right?

462
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,180
Can we create an app that does this?

463
00:28:31,180 --> 00:28:36,140
I mean, the traditional thing of asking around who's got research projects and then meeting

464
00:28:36,140 --> 00:28:42,580
with them and then creating databases and notebooks and websites of which faculty have

465
00:28:42,580 --> 00:28:43,940
research projects going on.

466
00:28:43,940 --> 00:28:47,460
I mean, it's basically evolving into a dating app.

467
00:28:47,460 --> 00:28:57,060
So yeah, I think we should just call it what it is and do it.

468
00:28:57,060 --> 00:28:59,380
I agree, and thank you for your patience.

469
00:28:59,380 --> 00:29:03,860
I have been having connection difficulties for everyone who's listening and wondering

470
00:29:03,860 --> 00:29:05,540
what all the positives are.

471
00:29:05,540 --> 00:29:06,740
And Alfred, thank you so much.

472
00:29:06,740 --> 00:29:10,060
You have been such a pleasure to talk to you.

473
00:29:10,060 --> 00:29:11,300
You have such great insight.

474
00:29:11,300 --> 00:29:14,620
I feel like at some point I'm going to need to invite you back again so that we can talk

475
00:29:14,620 --> 00:29:19,900
about some more of the nuances of the mentoring and defining success, because there's so much

476
00:29:19,900 --> 00:29:21,860
really to unpack.

477
00:29:21,860 --> 00:29:22,860
And I just want to thank you.

478
00:29:22,860 --> 00:29:25,860
You shared so much wisdom, so much insight.

479
00:29:25,860 --> 00:29:29,460
And I know our listeners will learn so much from it.

480
00:29:29,460 --> 00:29:30,620
Thank you so much, Dorothy.

481
00:29:30,620 --> 00:29:33,900
And thank you for everything you've done in our field and also with this podcast and all

482
00:29:33,900 --> 00:29:38,100
the things you're doing now to sort of propel trainees and our whole field forward.

483
00:29:38,100 --> 00:29:39,100
Thank you.

484
00:29:39,100 --> 00:29:40,740
I think we have a shared goal.

485
00:29:40,740 --> 00:29:45,180
And so I'm glad to have you as a partner globally in this effort.

486
00:29:45,180 --> 00:29:46,620
Thank you for being here.

487
00:29:46,620 --> 00:29:47,620
Thank you.

488
00:29:47,620 --> 00:29:49,220
All right, everyone.

489
00:29:49,220 --> 00:29:50,940
You've heard Dr. Lee.

490
00:29:50,940 --> 00:29:55,900
He's talked a lot about things that fellows need to think about in terms of being successful.

491
00:29:55,900 --> 00:29:59,760
If you've enjoyed this podcast episode, please share it with somebody else.

492
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:04,020
If you're a mentor who's listening, please share it with your mentees and ask them to

493
00:30:04,020 --> 00:30:09,220
share it with their peer mentors or their peers so that more people can kind of learn

494
00:30:09,220 --> 00:30:14,140
a lot about the hidden curriculum and then continue to work towards their own success.

495
00:30:14,140 --> 00:30:28,100
All right, until next time, take care.

496
00:30:28,100 --> 00:30:33,460
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast, where academic

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00:30:33,460 --> 00:30:38,900
clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they

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00:30:38,900 --> 00:30:40,260
have a mentor.

499
00:30:40,260 --> 00:30:46,360
If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.

500
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,100
Someone else needs to hear it.

501
00:30:48,100 --> 00:30:52,140
So take a minute right now and share it.

502
00:30:52,140 --> 00:30:57,620
As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation

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00:30:57,620 --> 00:31:02,980
of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.