An interview with clinician scientist, Dr. Shakira Grant

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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills

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to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.

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When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find

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that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research

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program.

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Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.

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However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.

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For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians

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the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwemene.

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Hello everybody.

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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast.

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This is your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.

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I am excited to be talking with you today because I have a special guest with me, Dr.

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Shakira Grant.

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And in just a moment, I'm going to get Dr. Grant to introduce herself.

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And I just want you to know it's going to be a great interview.

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And so if you can think of a mentee or somebody else who's a colleague who needs to hear her

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words of wisdom, please definitely share this episode with them.

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Now to Dr. Grant.

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Welcome Shakira.

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How are you?

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Hi, I'm doing well.

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Thank you so much for having me today.

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Thank you for being with us on the show.

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It's such a pleasure to have you.

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Our audience wants to get to know you a little bit better.

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So please introduce yourself to them, especially with regards to your role as a clinician researcher.

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Sure.

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So I am currently an assistant professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel

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Hill.

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I'm currently in my third year as faculty there.

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And my background training is as a geriatric hematologist and oncologist.

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And as a researcher, I spend the majority of my time engaged in patient-centered research

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that focuses on older Black adults with multiple myeloma and trying to address some of the

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healthcare and health disparities that affect this population.

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Wow.

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Wow.

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Dr. Grant, you're doing a lot.

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I want to ask you, Dr. Grant, because when we think about our training, we spend all

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of our training doing clinical work, really.

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So at what point did you make the transition where you saw yourself not just as a clinician,

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but as a clinician researcher?

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Yeah.

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So I think for me, the journey was a little bit different because I was trained in Barbados,

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which is my home country.

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And my training in Barbados was always clinically focused.

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Coming through medical school, we always heard that the whole point of going through the

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training was really to make us these exceptional clinicians.

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So I really didn't have early experiences with research or having a research focus.

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And what I ended up doing, my first entry into research was actually while I was a senior

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house officer, which is the equivalent of a resident at the time, believe it or not,

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in orthopedics in Barbados.

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And I actually carved out a research project where I would be looking at assessing the

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prevalence of bone tumors or bone cancers in this population within Barbados.

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And that led to my first post-presentation at something known as the Caribbean Conference

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of Orthopedic Surgeons in St. Lucia.

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And it was really from there that I said, you know, this research thing, you know, maybe

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I want to try it on a little bit more.

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But after that early experience, I still was clinically immersed working in Barbados as

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a physician and then ultimately in Bermuda as a clinician.

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And it wasn't until I actually immigrated to the US and did my residency training that

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I really started to see the connection between needing to do research in order to be able

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to be well positioned to really provide excellent clinical care.

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And I started to see that, especially when it came to the older adult population, I realized

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that was a community where a population where we don't have a lot of data to support a lot

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of the interventions or the approaches that we use, especially in oncology.

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And I began to get really interested, especially in older adult oncology.

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So I would say it really started in my residency training.

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And this is after a background where I was really clinically focused for several years

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after graduation from medical school.

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Wow.

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Wow.

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Thank you for sharing that.

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I have to say that there are a couple of things that really stand out to me in your story.

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Number one, you carved out a research project.

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Never having done research, you carved out a project.

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Can you tell me what that was like?

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What led you to believe that you could do that?

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I know, right?

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It's always interesting looking back in hindsight.

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But I think for me, that came out of actually an area of disappointment, I would say.

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And what that disappointment had looked like at the time was that I was actually finishing

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my medical school training.

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And in Barbados, our system is structured like the UK model, where we do five years

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of medical school, and then there is a mandatory internship period for one year after.

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So after I was completing my internship, I was always interested in oncology as a specialty.

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And unfortunately, we didn't have a specialty where I could specialize in oncology at my

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hospital in Barbados.

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And I actually applied to try to get into internal medicine residency in Barbados, and

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I didn't get accepted.

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There were just too few slots and too many people.

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So I was left in this quandary of trying to figure out what am I going to do after my

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year of internship had ended.

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And luckily, I came upon a mentor who was an orthopedic surgeon.

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He knew of my love for oncology.

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And he felt like having that year as a resident or a senior house officer in orthopedics would

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allow me to kind of take a different approach, which is thinking about bone cancers.

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So a way of looking at musculoskeletal oncology, essentially, during that time.

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And it really was something that they didn't have established, where they already knew

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like how many bone tumors they were seeing.

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So it was like a win-win for us both.

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So he was providing this opportunity, full internship for me.

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And then by the way, I was able to carve out this kind of project by going through this

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retrospective chart review to basically evaluate the epidemiology of bone tumors within our

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particular hospital system.

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Wow.

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Okay, so what I hear is you being ready and taking the opportunity, but also you got fortunate

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in meeting somebody who helped you move further.

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So you were ready.

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And when the opportunity came, you took it.

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Yes.

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Wow.

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I agree.

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Yeah.

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I think, just if I could expand on that, one of the things as I look back on that really

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early experience, it really helped me to understand the importance of mentorship.

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And not only just mentorship, as you think about just having somebody there who's senior

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or someone who's junior, but also sponsorship.

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So somebody who is looking out for you and who can just open that door when sometimes

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it feels like you don't have a lot of options for you, which is what essentially happens

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to me after my internship.

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Like I thought I didn't have a lot of options.

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But here we were able to create this creative position that allowed me to do research, allowed

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me to engage in the oncology space, but really coming at it from a different angle.

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I love it.

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I love the word you use, create.

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You're creating.

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And when you were talking about even the research you're doing right now, it sounds like you're

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still creating.

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So tell me about how that experience shapes how you move forward in your research right

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now.

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Yeah.

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I think for me, one thing that I've come to realize is that I am never going to be one

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who's going to go with the status quo.

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I recognized that very early on that if there is a path that is well-trodden, you could

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be assured that I am probably going to take the alternative path that will require building

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new connections, new bridges, and new, kind of like all these ideas around programmatic

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growth and development.

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And so knowing that about myself, it seems like I really like to rise to these types

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of challenges.

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And this is really exemplified in my research currently where this is truly a transdisciplinary

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approach to doing research.

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It not only draws on geriatrics, oncology, hematology, but also involves public health

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because what we're doing is trying to reach people in their communities where they're

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at.

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And so that really relies on that community engagement piece, which is not necessarily

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what you get when you do mainstream geriatrics or mainstream hematology research.

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And so it's allowed me to really be nimble in all of these different spaces to really

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engage in this research and to try to bring the research to the Black community, especially

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that is affected by multiple myeloma.

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Wow.

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This is really awesome.

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And one of the things that highlights for me is that clinicians, even though we haven't

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had research training in our background, we're leaders and we're embedded in the space where

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we see the patient challenges.

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We can go where research should go, even though we don't have the training.

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And so what an opportunity to create something that is needed, but for you to actually be

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leading your program, you're not like, oh, I don't know what I'm doing.

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You're actually leading it, which is incredible.

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And it makes me wonder though that it can be easy, right?

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It can't be easy.

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So what's been the hardest piece of building this research program that you're running?

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Yeah.

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So I think the hardest piece is really to know that you are building something that

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there is not a well-throttened path.

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And whenever you try to go down the path of the most resistance, you can definitely expect

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that you will encounter a lot more hurdles and barriers because you are more apt to hear

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responses as we've never done that before.

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We don't know how to do this.

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I'm not sure this is going to work.

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And so what it really takes is just this drive and this dedication to really help others

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see that even though we have not done this previously in this way, that we are going

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to be open to new ideas, new collaborations, and potentially trying things a different

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way.

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And I think one of the things that really comes out from walking down this path where

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you're essentially building and navigating the road at the same time is that you have

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to be not afraid to fail.

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So you have to realize that there are going to be challenges that are going to come up.

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You're going to fail, but you have to keep driving forward and thinking about creative

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ways in which you can help to overcome the barriers and the obstacles because it is very

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easy to turn back and to say, you know what, I'm not going to pursue this line of research.

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It's just too hard.

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I'm just going to do something that is more commonplace or more expected.

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But then at the end of the day, I feel like that is not living true to me.

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And what are my internal motivators for really engaging in this type of research?

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Thank you for sharing that.

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I hear two things.

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One is that you are having an adventure, creating something amazing, and it's challenging.

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But in pushing forward, pushing past the barriers, you get more fulfillment because when you

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see forward motion, it helps you recognize that your work is worth doing.

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Exactly.

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Yeah, I definitely would second that as a really wonderful summary because it gives

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you this, I don't know, but for me, it gives me this additional feeling of accomplishment.

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It makes me realize that I am not only now building this road and walking on it at the

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same time, but I'm also now potentially creating a path for others who may have looked ahead

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at the obstacles that lay before them and felt as if this is not possible, this is not

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doable, it's too difficult.

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But by moving forward with each step, I think it encourages others who may be coming behind

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me to also not be afraid to step outside of the box and create your own avenues if there

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are no avenues that exist for you to essentially walk alone.

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Wow, I love that.

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So what I see you doing is you're blazing the trail and then you're lighting fires

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and all of a sudden you're like, hey, everyone, you can do this, follow me.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I love it.

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Now what has kept you from giving up?

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Because you've had some challenging times.

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So what's helped you stay on track?

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So I would say for me, staying on track comes down to really two things.

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One, I will speak openly about my faith as a Christian.

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That is something that has really kept me grounded and kept me going forward even in

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the most challenging times.

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The other is that I carry this weight of if I fail, if I turn back now, I'm essentially

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saying to the other people who are coming behind, who may look like me, who may not

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have opportunities, that this road is so hard that all we can do is try, but at the

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end the result is the same.

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We fail, we turn back and we go down the path that others expect.

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So those are my two main motivators and what has kept me grounded is knowing that this

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is not just for me about reaching a goal post and reaching some level of fulfillment.

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This is also about leaving a legacy behind so that those who are coming after me can

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have something that they can work towards and they can build towards.

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I see that there's a great sense of purpose, the sense that what you're doing is bigger

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than you and also the sense that you have an obligation to work hard, to move the path

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forward and not to give up at this opportunity.

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And so that keeps you going because you feel like you have fidelity to the purpose.

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Yes, that is correct.

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I love it.

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I love it because one of the things that I share with people who are thinking about this

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path and like, if you're going to do this, this is hard, don't just do what somebody

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else gives you.

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Don't just go the easy way because it is easy.

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You will succeed, but it doesn't fulfill you.

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And when the rejections come, you can't be sustained because it's not even what you want

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to do.

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And so what I'm hearing you say is that it's hard.

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Even when you choose the path where it's like, this is what I really want to do.

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It's still hard, but it's easier because it allows you to keep going because you have

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a sense of purpose about what you're doing.

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Yeah, yeah, that's for sure.

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I think having that internal, and again, I think it goes back to knowing what are your

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internal motivators, you know?

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And many of us, as I've been reflecting on this lately, a lot of the times when we are

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forging these types of careers where there is not a path that is well trodden and we're

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trying to create it, it is because of the stories that we carry.

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It's because of our lived experiences that has shaped our passion and our commitment

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to doing this.

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So then it moves beyond just, you know, who may be coming in the future, but it's kind

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of looking back at that past, looking back at your past self and saying, you know, I

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don't want to disappoint my past self.

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I want to take all of the experiences, all the struggle, all the challenges, and I want

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to use that to be able to create something that then leaves a legacy, not more disappointment

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and more, you know, a hurt and challenge, but something that can be used and turned

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into something positive.

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Wow, I love that.

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It's like every challenge you've ever been through, everywhere you've been broken, everywhere

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you've been hurt, to package it and make it count for someone else.

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So it's like not to waste the pain, but to use it to create good in the world.

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Yes.

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Oh, I love it.

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I love it.

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Okay, we're nearing the end of our time.

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I just want to ask you to think about the person who's listening to you right now.

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He's like, I'm a clinician.

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I've only ever done a clinician, clinical stuff all my life.

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I've never done research and Dr. Shakira is so awesome.

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She's doing all these things, but I'm not like her.

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What do you want to tell?

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How would you tell this person about pursuing a path to achieving their dream as a clinician

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researcher?

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Yeah, I think the first is not being afraid to step out and try something new because

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you came from a primarily a clinician background, just like myself.

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I mean, if you asked me 10 years ago, if I would have been a clinician scientist or

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a clinician researcher, I would have said no, because all I knew at that time was that

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we were MDs or in this case we're MBBS, but medical doctors and medical doctors see patients

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and that was kind of it, right?

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But if you are not afraid to try something new and you're really passionate about discovery

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and continuing to advance science in a way that then comes back and could be beneficial

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to the patients that you see, I would say go for it.

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There is nothing wrong with immersing yourself in research.

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I don't believe that there is any timeline to this.

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I don't believe that you're too late or you've been in practice for too long.

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I think there are always ways in which we could contribute to advancing science no matter

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where we may be in our medical careers or our overall journey.

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Thank you.

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That is inspiring.

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And I would say that if I was not a clinician researcher right now, I would say sign me

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up.

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I'm going to do this.

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I just want to thank you Shakira for coming on the show today and talking to our audience.

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Your story is inspiring and you're clearly doing great things in the world.

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And I feel very happy for your mentees because they've got a great mentor in you.

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And I just want to thank you for the work you're doing and thank you for sharing with

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our audience today.

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Thank you so much for having me.

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It was such a pleasure.

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Thank you.

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All right.

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Thank you everyone.

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So you've heard Dr. Grant's.

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This is doable.

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You can do it too.

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And I just want to encourage you that if for whatever reason you're like, I'm not sure.

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I still don't know.

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I want to ask you to go ahead and talk to someone today like Dr. Grant who's around

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you who's doing this and just go ahead and say, how did you do this?

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And as you talk to more people, you're going to find out that this is a path that many

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clinicians are treading.

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We're not experts, but we're becoming experts.

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We're forging the way forward.

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And if we can do it, you can do it too.

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If you want to sign up for our newsletter, get more tips about how to grow in your path

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as a clinician researcher, please head to our website, docseedresearch.com, sign up

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for our weekly newsletter.

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And most importantly, this has been such an awesome message from Dr. Grant.

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I want you to share it with someone who needs to hear it.

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All right.

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Thank you for listening and we'll see you again next time.

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Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic

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clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they

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have a mentor.

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If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.

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Someone else needs to hear it.

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So take a minute right now and share it.

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As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation

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of clinician researchers make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.