The career development award interview with Dr. David Sykes

1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,860
Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills

2
00:00:05,860 --> 00:00:11,260
to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

3
00:00:11,260 --> 00:00:17,340
As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.

4
00:00:17,340 --> 00:00:22,380
When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find

5
00:00:22,380 --> 00:00:27,780
that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research

6
00:00:27,780 --> 00:00:29,180
program.

7
00:00:29,180 --> 00:00:35,480
Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.

8
00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:40,580
However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.

9
00:00:40,580 --> 00:00:46,200
For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians

10
00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,800
the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

11
00:00:51,800 --> 00:01:01,060
Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.

12
00:01:01,060 --> 00:01:02,060
Hi everyone.

13
00:01:02,060 --> 00:01:04,660
This is Toyosi Onwuemene on the Clinician Researcher podcast.

14
00:01:04,660 --> 00:01:07,260
So happy to be here talking to you today.

15
00:01:07,260 --> 00:01:13,180
I'm super excited because we have an absolutely amazing guest with us today, Dr. David Sykes.

16
00:01:13,180 --> 00:01:16,720
He's going to introduce himself in a minute, but I'm super excited about what he's going

17
00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:18,220
to share with you today.

18
00:01:18,220 --> 00:01:23,400
So without further ado, Dr. David Sykes, welcome to the show.

19
00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:24,660
Thank you very much for inviting me.

20
00:01:24,660 --> 00:01:26,780
It's great to be here.

21
00:01:26,780 --> 00:01:31,840
So if you wouldn't mind just introducing yourself briefly to our audience, tell us a little

22
00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:36,460
bit in your introduction about your journey to become a clinician scientist.

23
00:01:36,460 --> 00:01:38,020
No, thank you.

24
00:01:38,020 --> 00:01:43,740
So I'm currently an assistant professor at the Massachusetts General Hospital, and I

25
00:01:43,740 --> 00:01:47,860
run a basic science lab, mostly about four days a week, and then I still see patients

26
00:01:47,860 --> 00:01:52,480
and clinics on Friday afternoons and attend on the hematology consult service for four

27
00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:53,920
weeks a year.

28
00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:58,580
The journey here, I think was in a sense pretty straightforward and then some hiccups along

29
00:01:58,580 --> 00:02:03,900
the way, but I did my undergraduate work up in the University of Alberta up in Canada.

30
00:02:03,900 --> 00:02:09,500
So chilly, chilly, and then did a full 180 and did my MD, PhD down at University of California

31
00:02:09,500 --> 00:02:12,920
in San Diego and came out to Boston for residency.

32
00:02:12,920 --> 00:02:16,120
Was only going to stay here for three years and now I've been here for 19 years.

33
00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:18,500
So got stuck on the East Coast.

34
00:02:18,500 --> 00:02:19,500
Sure.

35
00:02:19,500 --> 00:02:23,100
Sounds like you've had fun along the way.

36
00:02:23,100 --> 00:02:24,460
It's certainly an adventure.

37
00:02:24,460 --> 00:02:28,220
And I'm one of the people where now I wonder if I should be allowed to give advice because

38
00:02:28,220 --> 00:02:33,980
of course I'm self-selected for someone who's overtly optimistic even in the face of many

39
00:02:33,980 --> 00:02:34,980
failures.

40
00:02:34,980 --> 00:02:38,460
So any advice for me should be taken with a grain of salt for sure.

41
00:02:38,460 --> 00:02:42,980
No, I definitely appreciate your insights, which I think are going to be valuable to

42
00:02:42,980 --> 00:02:43,980
our audience.

43
00:02:43,980 --> 00:02:53,660
Now you and I were interviewers on a recent, we did at the, the Ash R. Taft applications.

44
00:02:53,660 --> 00:02:58,340
We had interview, we had interviewees who were interviewing with us and we had a chance

45
00:02:58,340 --> 00:03:03,460
to look at candidates and really evaluate them from the perspective of how they present

46
00:03:03,460 --> 00:03:06,220
their research, how they talk about it.

47
00:03:06,220 --> 00:03:11,340
And I wanted you to talk a little bit about what that process was like from the perspective

48
00:03:11,340 --> 00:03:14,260
of the interviewer.

49
00:03:14,260 --> 00:03:15,260
Yeah.

50
00:03:15,260 --> 00:03:18,940
And as you said, that's a bit of a unique opportunity.

51
00:03:18,940 --> 00:03:25,020
Not a lot of grants have a built in in-person interview and certainly it lends, I think

52
00:03:25,020 --> 00:03:28,940
a whole other level, which is very important, which is to get to meet the people and put

53
00:03:28,940 --> 00:03:32,760
a face and, and a name to their grant application.

54
00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:36,660
So often you're reviewing grant applications only on paper.

55
00:03:36,660 --> 00:03:40,920
And I think, and I think you would agree, you know, you learn a lot in that 25 minute

56
00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:45,500
interview that you'd never learned from that six page or, you know, more application.

57
00:03:45,500 --> 00:03:46,500
So I think it is good.

58
00:03:46,500 --> 00:03:51,060
And then I had the, you know, the strange, not the strange, but the, the added thing

59
00:03:51,060 --> 00:03:56,660
where I was actually an interviewee for the R. Tafts, you know, many years previously.

60
00:03:56,660 --> 00:04:00,180
So I'd sort of seen it come full circle and yeah, there's not too many grants where you

61
00:04:00,180 --> 00:04:03,340
actually get to go and kind of present yourself in person.

62
00:04:03,340 --> 00:04:04,340
Sure.

63
00:04:04,340 --> 00:04:06,420
And, and, and thank you for, for pointing that out.

64
00:04:06,420 --> 00:04:07,420
It's true.

65
00:04:07,420 --> 00:04:08,420
It is quite, quite rare.

66
00:04:08,420 --> 00:04:13,320
I would call you that in addition to the R. Taft, the ASHA and FTP award is another one

67
00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,060
of those where you actually do interview in person.

68
00:04:16,060 --> 00:04:19,700
And there might be a grant from the borough's welcome fund as well, where you interview

69
00:04:19,700 --> 00:04:20,700
in person.

70
00:04:20,700 --> 00:04:25,320
So even though they don't, they're not that common, there are enough of those opportunities

71
00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:29,980
that I think it's definitely worth talking about how candidates should best prepare to

72
00:04:29,980 --> 00:04:32,160
answer questions about their research.

73
00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:34,740
And so that's a question I'm going to ask you, but I'm also going to make the comment

74
00:04:34,740 --> 00:04:39,740
that we had an interesting experience where candidates looked great on paper.

75
00:04:39,740 --> 00:04:41,780
Their grants were so awesome.

76
00:04:41,780 --> 00:04:45,940
And then when we met them, there was a gap between what was on paper and what was, what

77
00:04:45,940 --> 00:04:47,600
was presented in person.

78
00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:52,540
So I want you to answer that question for our listeners about how can candidates prepare

79
00:04:52,540 --> 00:04:54,500
to answer questions about their research?

80
00:04:54,500 --> 00:04:56,020
No, and thanks for that.

81
00:04:56,020 --> 00:04:58,860
I mean, obviously you're absolutely right.

82
00:04:58,860 --> 00:05:03,500
We did have that feeling where you wanted people to really shine based on what we read

83
00:05:03,500 --> 00:05:05,260
about them maybe or based on.

84
00:05:05,260 --> 00:05:08,540
And then, yeah, maybe just something disconnects there.

85
00:05:08,540 --> 00:05:09,840
I did write down a couple of notes.

86
00:05:09,840 --> 00:05:14,060
And so I'll sort of turn to those because I did want to be somewhat coherent.

87
00:05:14,060 --> 00:05:18,940
But one of the things I thought that was maybe the most important for someone is to have

88
00:05:18,940 --> 00:05:22,100
the ability to put their research into context.

89
00:05:22,100 --> 00:05:28,300
And by that, I mean, I think sometimes people assume that the interview, interviewers know

90
00:05:28,300 --> 00:05:29,300
more than we do, right?

91
00:05:29,300 --> 00:05:34,620
I mean, I think we are trained and I'm trained in maybe neutro-viral disorders.

92
00:05:34,620 --> 00:05:39,140
And I like to think that I have a fairly broad hematologic base, but deep down, I don't know

93
00:05:39,140 --> 00:05:41,780
the nitty gritty of every CAR T cell trial.

94
00:05:41,780 --> 00:05:46,900
And I certainly don't know the nitty gritty of every follicular lymphoma diagnosis.

95
00:05:46,900 --> 00:05:51,760
So the ability, I think, to really put it into context and frame how the candidate's

96
00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:56,140
project is maybe different than what's been done before, how it builds on what's been

97
00:05:56,140 --> 00:05:57,820
done before.

98
00:05:57,820 --> 00:06:01,620
And then really, how is it going to answer an important question?

99
00:06:01,620 --> 00:06:04,900
Because sometimes if you don't know the field well enough, you don't know what the important

100
00:06:04,900 --> 00:06:06,180
questions are.

101
00:06:06,180 --> 00:06:10,540
And so not assuming that everybody knows the important question and really explicitly be

102
00:06:10,540 --> 00:06:13,000
able to say, this is why we're doing this.

103
00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:14,340
This is why it's important.

104
00:06:14,340 --> 00:06:19,580
And one of my mentors had a good phrase where he would put at the end of every grant, he'd

105
00:06:19,580 --> 00:06:23,420
say, if this is successful, this is what we will have accomplished.

106
00:06:23,420 --> 00:06:25,820
And I think that's a nice way to look at it.

107
00:06:25,820 --> 00:06:29,660
Because if you are successful in your grant, great, and we want you to be successful, are

108
00:06:29,660 --> 00:06:33,660
you going to accomplish something that's just sort of an incremental advance?

109
00:06:33,660 --> 00:06:36,980
Are you really going to accomplish something that's a big advance?

110
00:06:36,980 --> 00:06:43,180
But being able to tell us in a succinct fashion, yeah, putting that into context and giving

111
00:06:43,180 --> 00:06:47,020
it, I think, is just such an important attribute.

112
00:06:47,020 --> 00:06:48,940
Thank you for pointing that out, David.

113
00:06:48,940 --> 00:06:50,580
It's what I'm hearing you say.

114
00:06:50,580 --> 00:06:55,980
It's really about making sure you understand that this is really a long term strategy.

115
00:06:55,980 --> 00:06:57,060
It's a long goal.

116
00:06:57,060 --> 00:07:00,740
So we're not just doing a project just to say we participated in a project, but we're

117
00:07:00,740 --> 00:07:05,380
doing a project that takes us somewhere that potentially leads to something, a really awesome

118
00:07:05,380 --> 00:07:07,060
outcome at the end of the road.

119
00:07:07,060 --> 00:07:12,220
And for candidates to be able to step away from the project and enter, in a sense, look

120
00:07:12,220 --> 00:07:18,220
at the forest instead of just the trees to say, this is really why this project is important,

121
00:07:18,220 --> 00:07:21,460
or we can go next with it if we're successful.

122
00:07:21,460 --> 00:07:22,460
100%.

123
00:07:22,460 --> 00:07:23,460
Yeah.

124
00:07:23,460 --> 00:07:29,460
And having, I think sometimes there's a tendency to be maybe more general or say, oh, this

125
00:07:29,460 --> 00:07:34,620
is going to advance knowledge or advance our understanding of, I think you would probably

126
00:07:34,620 --> 00:07:40,020
agree, I love it when people are very specific and can really put a much more tangible maybe

127
00:07:40,020 --> 00:07:44,860
and a much more, yeah, just a very specific feel of what they're going to do.

128
00:07:44,860 --> 00:07:49,220
If they're going to develop an app that's going to help with the diagnosis, tell us

129
00:07:49,220 --> 00:07:50,220
that.

130
00:07:50,220 --> 00:07:55,300
If you're going to do a whole bunch of Western blots and try to figure out combination therapy

131
00:07:55,300 --> 00:07:56,300
or something, that's important.

132
00:07:56,300 --> 00:07:59,300
But being very specific, I think is helpful.

133
00:07:59,300 --> 00:08:05,180
It gives us a sense that one, you're invested, you know what you're talking about, you've

134
00:08:05,180 --> 00:08:10,460
got a sense of what are the steps that are required to advance to that goal.

135
00:08:10,460 --> 00:08:13,560
And then be able to say, look, yes, if all of these Western blots work, if all these

136
00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:18,740
analog experiments work, if all these CAR T cells work, how are we, Ariane, in two years

137
00:08:18,740 --> 00:08:21,940
or five years, how will we have advanced the shield?

138
00:08:21,940 --> 00:08:22,940
That's awesome.

139
00:08:22,940 --> 00:08:23,940
Thank you, David.

140
00:08:23,940 --> 00:08:29,420
So my second question is, so when candidates describe their research, what is the most

141
00:08:29,420 --> 00:08:34,420
important thing or group of things that they should make sure that they communicate?

142
00:08:34,420 --> 00:08:36,780
Yeah, this is a hard one.

143
00:08:36,780 --> 00:08:42,100
And I think, you know, these days, I think we all understand you can't be expected to

144
00:08:42,100 --> 00:08:43,100
know everything.

145
00:08:43,100 --> 00:08:48,980
You know, you can't be a perfect bioinformatician and a computer programmer and do all the cell

146
00:08:48,980 --> 00:08:51,180
culture and collect the samples.

147
00:08:51,180 --> 00:08:55,220
And so I think we all understand there's definitely some team science, which is a huge thing.

148
00:08:55,220 --> 00:08:59,660
And I certainly, we want to applaud and champion team science.

149
00:08:59,660 --> 00:09:03,180
But that being said, when you're presenting yourself in a brief interview, it's great

150
00:09:03,180 --> 00:09:05,260
to tell people, what is your role?

151
00:09:05,260 --> 00:09:06,260
Right?

152
00:09:06,260 --> 00:09:11,220
Are you someone who's going to collect the samples, put them on the flow cytometer, you

153
00:09:11,220 --> 00:09:15,900
know, compensate everything, and then give the sequencing data to somebody else?

154
00:09:15,900 --> 00:09:16,900
That's great.

155
00:09:16,900 --> 00:09:19,580
You know, just like, I think, but it's very important, I think, to define that role.

156
00:09:19,580 --> 00:09:23,020
One because one, we don't believe you if you say you're going to do everything, because

157
00:09:23,020 --> 00:09:24,520
it's almost impossible.

158
00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:28,700
But also two, it shows us, oh, how do you fit into this team?

159
00:09:28,700 --> 00:09:34,900
And not to say, you know, obviously it'd be great to do many things, but nobody expects

160
00:09:34,900 --> 00:09:36,380
you to do everything.

161
00:09:36,380 --> 00:09:39,740
And so having a sense of, oh, I've thought this through, I am going to need some help

162
00:09:39,740 --> 00:09:40,740
with the biostatistic.

163
00:09:40,740 --> 00:09:42,380
I am going to need some help.

164
00:09:42,380 --> 00:09:46,780
But what I'm going to take ownership of, what I'm going to do when I'm going to be in the

165
00:09:46,780 --> 00:09:48,820
lab later on, or I'm going to do these parts.

166
00:09:48,820 --> 00:09:51,860
And that's actually really helpful, those specificities.

167
00:09:51,860 --> 00:09:55,740
And then I was thinking, you know, two things that I think we've asked, and sometimes people

168
00:09:55,740 --> 00:10:01,140
are really good at is kind of that short-term perspective and the long-term perspective,

169
00:10:01,140 --> 00:10:05,060
which is really to say, you know, short-term, you know, the grant's only a year or two.

170
00:10:05,060 --> 00:10:07,040
So what are you going to accomplish?

171
00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:13,260
But then if you are stuck, you know, opening your own lab and thinking about that long-term

172
00:10:13,260 --> 00:10:16,580
vision, can you put your project into that context as well?

173
00:10:16,580 --> 00:10:20,060
That's a little more of a hard one, but it does give you the sense that people have thought

174
00:10:20,060 --> 00:10:23,260
a little bit beyond their own experiments.

175
00:10:23,260 --> 00:10:24,260
I love that.

176
00:10:24,260 --> 00:10:28,660
And I also appreciate that for candidates, sometimes they're presenting a project that's

177
00:10:28,660 --> 00:10:30,140
not really theirs, right?

178
00:10:30,140 --> 00:10:32,820
They didn't develop the project.

179
00:10:32,820 --> 00:10:36,300
And sometimes we have the sense of like, well, so which piece of this is yours?

180
00:10:36,300 --> 00:10:37,780
And which piece is your mentors?

181
00:10:37,780 --> 00:10:43,140
Can you speak a little bit to how does a candidate present a project when really they're doing

182
00:10:43,140 --> 00:10:45,740
something that the mentor gave them to do?

183
00:10:45,740 --> 00:10:47,540
No, that's so true.

184
00:10:47,540 --> 00:10:51,780
You know, in a sense, you could never expect a candidate to step into a lab and invent

185
00:10:51,780 --> 00:10:52,780
a new project.

186
00:10:52,780 --> 00:10:53,780
That doesn't even really make sense.

187
00:10:53,780 --> 00:10:57,380
You know, they should build on what a lab's expertise is.

188
00:10:57,380 --> 00:10:58,380
And I think that's true.

189
00:10:58,380 --> 00:11:02,580
I think being able to say that, you know, I walked into a lab where their expertise was,

190
00:11:02,580 --> 00:11:07,860
you know, used to be on molecular biology, now it's maybe on CRISPR Cas9 engineering

191
00:11:07,860 --> 00:11:08,860
of things.

192
00:11:08,860 --> 00:11:13,580
But I saw this or I got excited by these results and I wanted to take it farther.

193
00:11:13,580 --> 00:11:14,580
And that's great.

194
00:11:14,580 --> 00:11:18,340
You know, I think have a sense that they, you know, went to some lab meetings, talked

195
00:11:18,340 --> 00:11:21,700
to the mentor and helped devise a project.

196
00:11:21,700 --> 00:11:23,860
Or on the flip side, you can be very honest.

197
00:11:23,860 --> 00:11:27,100
You know, some people walk in and there's a new molecule.

198
00:11:27,100 --> 00:11:31,300
You know, a company has brought a new molecule to play or a new chimeric, you know, a new

199
00:11:31,300 --> 00:11:32,900
CAR-T that's in there.

200
00:11:32,900 --> 00:11:38,060
They said, look, this is an opportunity, but I see this as a really powerful opportunity.

201
00:11:38,060 --> 00:11:41,300
But again, having that, you know, being able to tell people that, yeah, in an honest and

202
00:11:41,300 --> 00:11:45,500
specific fashion, you don't have to be apologetic if you're doing to invent your own project,

203
00:11:45,500 --> 00:11:47,820
but you do have to have a sense of like, oh, this is a good opportunity.

204
00:11:47,820 --> 00:11:52,020
I'm going to accomplish this with these tools is super helpful.

205
00:11:52,020 --> 00:11:53,020
Yeah.

206
00:11:53,020 --> 00:11:54,020
I love it.

207
00:11:54,020 --> 00:11:57,180
So what I'm hearing you say is in a sense, it may not be your project.

208
00:11:57,180 --> 00:12:03,020
You may not have birthed it, but take ownership of it because rarely in science are we ever

209
00:12:03,020 --> 00:12:04,380
creating something brand new.

210
00:12:04,380 --> 00:12:05,380
Rarely.

211
00:12:05,380 --> 00:12:08,380
We really are moving things forward that other people have moved forward.

212
00:12:08,380 --> 00:12:10,060
And I like the way you put it.

213
00:12:10,060 --> 00:12:11,060
We're building.

214
00:12:11,060 --> 00:12:12,060
We're always building.

215
00:12:12,060 --> 00:12:14,540
It doesn't make sense unless someone's built something beforehand.

216
00:12:14,540 --> 00:12:16,640
Otherwise, you wouldn't be doing the project.

217
00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:21,780
But it's really about owning the project and speaking about it as if you're in charge,

218
00:12:21,780 --> 00:12:26,500
but also knowing which piece you're able to do versus the piece that you're going to need

219
00:12:26,500 --> 00:12:27,780
collaborators for.

220
00:12:27,780 --> 00:12:28,780
Yes.

221
00:12:28,780 --> 00:12:29,780
That's well said.

222
00:12:29,780 --> 00:12:30,780
Take ownership of it.

223
00:12:30,780 --> 00:12:31,780
Know it deeply.

224
00:12:31,780 --> 00:12:36,860
But yeah, don't expect yourself to made the genesis of the project.

225
00:12:36,860 --> 00:12:43,540
So moving away a little bit from the research is we asked this question to people about,

226
00:12:43,540 --> 00:12:46,940
we asked people, where do you see yourself by the years from now?

227
00:12:46,940 --> 00:12:48,500
And a couple of people struggled with that.

228
00:12:48,500 --> 00:12:52,780
Can you just talk a little bit about how does a candidate answer that question, especially

229
00:12:52,780 --> 00:12:53,780
when it's like, I'm in fellowship.

230
00:12:53,780 --> 00:12:56,340
I don't know what tomorrow it's going to bring.

231
00:12:56,340 --> 00:12:59,500
How can I answer that question about five years from now?

232
00:12:59,500 --> 00:13:03,380
It's true, and especially when the interviewers, we can't even answer that question usually

233
00:13:03,380 --> 00:13:04,380
ourselves.

234
00:13:04,380 --> 00:13:05,380
So that's a problem.

235
00:13:05,380 --> 00:13:08,460
Now, that was a good question.

236
00:13:08,460 --> 00:13:12,180
What I'd like is that someone has thought about it a little bit.

237
00:13:12,180 --> 00:13:13,660
And I guess I'll give two examples.

238
00:13:13,660 --> 00:13:20,860
So one example is, do you have a role model where you can look at, say, I want to be like

239
00:13:20,860 --> 00:13:21,860
this individual?

240
00:13:21,860 --> 00:13:25,700
And even if that individual isn't your best friend or on your mentorship committee, someone

241
00:13:25,700 --> 00:13:30,300
you've seen, somebody you could say, because I think sometimes people can't identify a

242
00:13:30,300 --> 00:13:32,860
role model, and you wonder if they're being realistic.

243
00:13:32,860 --> 00:13:40,140
You can't say, oh, I want to work in a university, but then travel and collect samples at this

244
00:13:40,140 --> 00:13:43,420
one place, exotic place, and then come back and do sequencing somewhere else.

245
00:13:43,420 --> 00:13:47,300
Because if you don't even have a role model that's done that, maybe your interviewers

246
00:13:47,300 --> 00:13:50,380
aren't going to think you've thought about that very realistically.

247
00:13:50,380 --> 00:13:54,740
And then I think it's more just maybe coming back again to a little more practical, is

248
00:13:54,740 --> 00:13:57,820
have you given any thought just to the steps that are required?

249
00:13:57,820 --> 00:14:03,980
Which is, and usually the people we're seeing, it's going to be papers and grants, and it's

250
00:14:03,980 --> 00:14:08,900
going to be a little bit of that, how do I fit into an academic institution in terms

251
00:14:08,900 --> 00:14:11,380
of clinical and research balance?

252
00:14:11,380 --> 00:14:13,160
And all of which we understand.

253
00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,500
But I like the idea that people have thought about it a little more than just, well, someone's

254
00:14:16,500 --> 00:14:18,580
going to give me a job, and I'm going to work really hard.

255
00:14:18,580 --> 00:14:22,300
Even though you know that's true, and their enthusiasm might be infectious.

256
00:14:22,300 --> 00:14:26,780
If you can't identify somebody who you want to be, who's already got a job that you want,

257
00:14:26,780 --> 00:14:30,140
that's probably where I'd like to see people go with that question.

258
00:14:30,140 --> 00:14:33,340
Yeah, thank you for the things you pointed out.

259
00:14:33,340 --> 00:14:37,620
I think also just, I love what you talk about.

260
00:14:37,620 --> 00:14:39,940
At the end, we're not asking you to tell the future.

261
00:14:39,940 --> 00:14:40,940
Right?

262
00:14:40,940 --> 00:14:43,300
I mean, we don't know our futures, right?

263
00:14:43,300 --> 00:14:46,100
But what we're saying is, have you even thought about this?

264
00:14:46,100 --> 00:14:47,420
Have you given any thought?

265
00:14:47,420 --> 00:14:52,860
So doing things as simple as five years from now, I will have graduated fellowship, and

266
00:14:52,860 --> 00:14:55,420
I will be in my first faculty position.

267
00:14:55,420 --> 00:14:59,980
I mean, even just going through the motions of saying what is expected five years from

268
00:14:59,980 --> 00:15:05,180
now, I think allows a candidate really to speak in a way that's intelligent about it.

269
00:15:05,180 --> 00:15:09,660
Like, as a junior faculty, I will be applying for grant funding.

270
00:15:09,660 --> 00:15:13,500
I'll probably be applying for a career development award, those kinds of things.

271
00:15:13,500 --> 00:15:14,500
But you're right.

272
00:15:14,500 --> 00:15:18,220
You're kind of, how much thought have you even given it?

273
00:15:18,220 --> 00:15:21,500
Because if you thought about it, then it shouldn't be difficult to talk about it.

274
00:15:21,500 --> 00:15:25,780
And so perhaps candidates in preparing need to at least have those conversations.

275
00:15:25,780 --> 00:15:27,460
I think it's good.

276
00:15:27,460 --> 00:15:33,420
I think it comes also just to realizing, so often we're mentored by people who are much

277
00:15:33,420 --> 00:15:39,100
senior than us, and oftentimes, in a sense, much more either experienced or successful.

278
00:15:39,100 --> 00:15:44,220
And sometimes you'll have projects where it's a 30-person lab with somebody with a ton of

279
00:15:44,220 --> 00:15:46,980
grant funding and 35 years of experience.

280
00:15:46,980 --> 00:15:51,260
And so you can't immediately expect to step into that.

281
00:15:51,260 --> 00:15:55,020
But understanding that, one, we want the best for you.

282
00:15:55,020 --> 00:15:56,500
We want people to be successful.

283
00:15:56,500 --> 00:15:58,540
We want people's projects to work.

284
00:15:58,540 --> 00:16:03,700
And so biting off a creative project, but something that's tangible is so good.

285
00:16:03,700 --> 00:16:07,180
I think that's really nice, because I think we definitely want to support people who are

286
00:16:07,180 --> 00:16:08,800
going to change the world.

287
00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:12,700
But you've got to do it sort of one step at a time, for sure.

288
00:16:12,700 --> 00:16:17,980
Now kind of as a corollary to that question is, when you know, so one thing we did see

289
00:16:17,980 --> 00:16:22,260
was one candidate who had been working on in a certain area for a long time, and then

290
00:16:22,260 --> 00:16:25,980
all of a sudden made a transition to a totally different area.

291
00:16:25,980 --> 00:16:29,700
And that can happen because candidates moved to a new institution.

292
00:16:29,700 --> 00:16:31,980
That project is no longer available.

293
00:16:31,980 --> 00:16:34,140
Maybe the funding ran out for that project.

294
00:16:34,140 --> 00:16:39,900
How can candidates talk about that and still talk about it in a way that makes sense?

295
00:16:39,900 --> 00:16:46,100
Yeah, and as you point out, we certainly see people where that's way out of their control,

296
00:16:46,100 --> 00:16:49,580
sometimes way out of their control and unexpected.

297
00:16:49,580 --> 00:16:54,580
And I guess on one hand, you could say, look, the ability to shift and be nimble is actually

298
00:16:54,580 --> 00:16:55,840
a huge trait, right?

299
00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:58,300
That's a huge in the plus column.

300
00:16:58,300 --> 00:17:02,920
And the timing of that is not always, as we said, in people's control.

301
00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:06,720
That's the sort of thing where I do feel like acknowledging it and just kind of facing it

302
00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:08,540
head on is so important.

303
00:17:08,540 --> 00:17:14,380
I think, as you kind of recall, we'd see people and then maybe would discuss as a group.

304
00:17:14,380 --> 00:17:18,420
You'd be like, oh, their CV has this big strange gap.

305
00:17:18,420 --> 00:17:21,280
But I think people could take 30 seconds and explain that.

306
00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:25,220
And then the people that do the best are people that say, look, I was working on a project

307
00:17:25,220 --> 00:17:29,020
A, and the mentor had an unexpected departure.

308
00:17:29,020 --> 00:17:30,020
I found a new opportunity.

309
00:17:30,020 --> 00:17:32,460
I got very excited about it.

310
00:17:32,460 --> 00:17:34,380
And again, it was able to shift.

311
00:17:34,380 --> 00:17:39,460
I think trying to cast that in an optimistic, positive fashion is as good as anything.

312
00:17:39,460 --> 00:17:42,140
But facing it head on is probably the most important.

313
00:17:42,140 --> 00:17:45,900
There's no way that, so sure, then nor should you sweep that under the carpet.

314
00:17:45,900 --> 00:17:47,100
That's not a bad thing.

315
00:17:47,100 --> 00:17:48,580
That's a mark on somebody's resume.

316
00:17:48,580 --> 00:17:51,940
It's just an unexpected piece of life, for sure.

317
00:17:51,940 --> 00:17:52,940
Absolutely.

318
00:17:52,940 --> 00:17:55,500
And David, we're going to talk about it as interviewers.

319
00:17:55,500 --> 00:17:56,980
We're like, what happened?

320
00:17:56,980 --> 00:17:59,580
And so you might as well just say something about it.

321
00:17:59,580 --> 00:18:02,340
And then we don't have to ask that question.

322
00:18:02,340 --> 00:18:08,460
Now, when we saw great candidates and we saw candidates that didn't present themselves

323
00:18:08,460 --> 00:18:14,580
as well, when you look at the extremes of who presented themselves well versus those

324
00:18:14,580 --> 00:18:20,380
who didn't, what was the secret ingredient of those who did really, really well?

325
00:18:20,380 --> 00:18:24,660
Yeah, I think people had excelled.

326
00:18:24,660 --> 00:18:30,740
I was trying to think about the top things that really framed them.

327
00:18:30,740 --> 00:18:32,780
One certainly is enthusiasm.

328
00:18:32,780 --> 00:18:38,060
There's nothing that's more exciting after a short day or a long day than people that

329
00:18:38,060 --> 00:18:41,220
are excited to talk about their work, obviously passionate about it.

330
00:18:41,220 --> 00:18:45,420
So that enthusiasm and passion certainly goes a long ways.

331
00:18:45,420 --> 00:18:54,300
I think there was, again, that idea that not kind of respect and appreciate who your interviewers

332
00:18:54,300 --> 00:18:59,660
are, which means we're not experts, but we're not neophytes.

333
00:18:59,660 --> 00:19:02,700
And being able, again, to put things into context, because there's also nothing worse

334
00:19:02,700 --> 00:19:06,060
than listening to somebody and realizing you don't get it.

335
00:19:06,060 --> 00:19:12,380
I think if someone is too technical or if we can't get it, then everybody feels bad,

336
00:19:12,380 --> 00:19:14,660
because then we feel that we're not appreciating it.

337
00:19:14,660 --> 00:19:17,580
And clearly, then that candidate did not get it.

338
00:19:17,580 --> 00:19:25,540
So that ability to frame things succinctly and to have that enthusiasm is super important.

339
00:19:25,540 --> 00:19:29,820
And mostly, I guess I frame this, you're kind of a teacher at that point.

340
00:19:29,820 --> 00:19:30,900
We want to learn.

341
00:19:30,900 --> 00:19:33,020
We're excited to learn about your project.

342
00:19:33,020 --> 00:19:34,020
We want to learn.

343
00:19:34,020 --> 00:19:39,300
So being able to teach that in a brief time, I think, is important.

344
00:19:39,300 --> 00:19:44,420
And the one thing that I think is very subtle, but I'll say it anyways, which is sometimes

345
00:19:44,420 --> 00:19:46,060
we'll have a little bit of an idea.

346
00:19:46,060 --> 00:19:49,020
And I know you mentioned something, and I think I mentioned it in a couple of interviews

347
00:19:49,020 --> 00:19:51,420
where, like, oh, have you thought about this?

348
00:19:51,420 --> 00:19:57,740
And it's important to maybe we're totally off base, but also being able to incorporate

349
00:19:57,740 --> 00:20:00,260
sort of that idea on the fly is a really nice trait.

350
00:20:00,260 --> 00:20:03,300
And some people just have an ability to do that really nicely.

351
00:20:03,300 --> 00:20:08,020
But I like that sort of enthusiasm, being able to frame things, and really being a teacher

352
00:20:08,020 --> 00:20:11,260
for that time is, I think, super important.

353
00:20:11,260 --> 00:20:13,940
I really appreciate what you said about being a teacher.

354
00:20:13,940 --> 00:20:16,980
In that moment, you are the expert on your project.

355
00:20:16,980 --> 00:20:19,900
And I can get why candidates will be a little bit intimidated.

356
00:20:19,900 --> 00:20:22,460
It's like, oh, my gosh, these are the people evaluating me.

357
00:20:22,460 --> 00:20:23,820
But you are the expert.

358
00:20:23,820 --> 00:20:27,920
And so bring your expertise, shine, and teach us something.

359
00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:30,420
And you may not necessarily be teaching us about pathophysiology.

360
00:20:30,420 --> 00:20:32,380
Please do not do that.

361
00:20:32,380 --> 00:20:36,820
But really teach us about why this project matters, why you care about it, where it's

362
00:20:36,820 --> 00:20:37,980
going to go.

363
00:20:37,980 --> 00:20:41,380
And no one can speak to that more strongly or more enthusiastically, really, than the

364
00:20:41,380 --> 00:20:42,380
candidate.

365
00:20:42,380 --> 00:20:43,380
100%.

366
00:20:43,380 --> 00:20:44,380
Yeah.

367
00:20:44,380 --> 00:20:48,180
How about on the flip side of that, those who didn't do as well?

368
00:20:48,180 --> 00:20:51,900
What were some of those things that stood out for you?

369
00:20:51,900 --> 00:20:52,900
Yeah.

370
00:20:52,900 --> 00:20:56,300
And I think, honestly, well, I'll say it just because it should be said.

371
00:20:56,300 --> 00:20:59,260
But lack of enthusiasm, obviously, is a huge red flag.

372
00:20:59,260 --> 00:21:03,340
If you're not excited about your project, then no one's going to be.

373
00:21:03,340 --> 00:21:04,340
We know that.

374
00:21:04,340 --> 00:21:05,820
And I don't think we had people like that.

375
00:21:05,820 --> 00:21:11,220
But I have had moments where people will come give a talk, and then they don't even seem

376
00:21:11,220 --> 00:21:13,380
like they care about their data.

377
00:21:13,380 --> 00:21:19,740
Or just obviously, people could be nervous, but please give us your most enthusiasm.

378
00:21:19,740 --> 00:21:24,460
And then two things, I think, that stand out, which is like everything in life, a bit of

379
00:21:24,460 --> 00:21:26,140
time managed.

380
00:21:26,140 --> 00:21:28,880
You might have 20 minutes or 30 minutes, you might have 30 minutes or 40 minutes.

381
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:33,700
But you also have to realize, interviewers want to ask more than one question.

382
00:21:33,700 --> 00:21:37,980
So I think if you spend 10 minutes answering the first question, that's too long.

383
00:21:37,980 --> 00:21:42,900
And that just demonstrates a little bit of a lack of how things are going to work.

384
00:21:42,900 --> 00:21:48,780
And some of our best candidates would answer stuff with just enough detail, in 60 seconds

385
00:21:48,780 --> 00:21:50,580
or 90 seconds.

386
00:21:50,580 --> 00:21:54,500
But the moment people go on for three, four minutes and use up a quarter of their interview

387
00:21:54,500 --> 00:21:56,180
time, that's too long.

388
00:21:56,180 --> 00:22:00,780
So I think the poor ones, I think, was that time management.

389
00:22:00,780 --> 00:22:10,100
And then there's just a little bit of disorganization, where unfortunately, you might ask a question

390
00:22:10,100 --> 00:22:14,580
and then it can derail things, because people go off into a tangent.

391
00:22:14,580 --> 00:22:18,260
And it's tough, because I think you do want to answer the question appropriately, but

392
00:22:18,260 --> 00:22:22,460
you also don't want to get too derailed in any nitty gritty.

393
00:22:22,460 --> 00:22:26,500
And I'm not having a good ability to give an example with that, other than to say, it

394
00:22:26,500 --> 00:22:32,380
is good to think about what parts of your project are accessible to the interviewers

395
00:22:32,380 --> 00:22:39,100
that are more broadly accessible, that have clinical applicability, and not get too bogged

396
00:22:39,100 --> 00:22:41,980
down in some of the details, which might be very important, and we want to hear about

397
00:22:41,980 --> 00:22:42,980
them.

398
00:22:42,980 --> 00:22:48,220
But I think it can also derail if people get too nitty gritty receptor signaling or about

399
00:22:48,220 --> 00:22:50,240
cloning of genes or stuff like that.

400
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,180
So that's a more subtle one.

401
00:22:52,180 --> 00:22:57,140
But time management, being enthusiastic are two big ones, for sure.

402
00:22:57,140 --> 00:22:58,140
Absolutely.

403
00:22:58,140 --> 00:22:59,140
Absolutely.

404
00:22:59,140 --> 00:23:05,140
David, at the end of each interview, we asked the candidates, what was missing?

405
00:23:05,140 --> 00:23:08,540
If there was a question that we hadn't asked, that they felt like there was something they

406
00:23:08,540 --> 00:23:09,540
needed to tell us about.

407
00:23:09,540 --> 00:23:13,900
I forget exactly how we framed the question, but it was really interesting as far as how

408
00:23:13,900 --> 00:23:15,700
the candidates responded.

409
00:23:15,700 --> 00:23:21,060
Tell me about what was some of the best answers and what should candidates be thinking about

410
00:23:21,060 --> 00:23:22,980
when they have that kind of opportunity?

411
00:23:22,980 --> 00:23:25,620
Yeah, Noah, that's a full credit.

412
00:23:25,620 --> 00:23:26,620
That was your question.

413
00:23:26,620 --> 00:23:30,620
That really worked out well, which was to say it definitely opened a lot of things that

414
00:23:30,620 --> 00:23:34,820
we didn't expect to get, which was nice.

415
00:23:34,820 --> 00:23:42,620
I think there was an opportunity to talk about some of the non-scientific challenges that

416
00:23:42,620 --> 00:23:45,580
people might have faced, and that was super important.

417
00:23:45,580 --> 00:23:53,220
I think we had quite a few passionate people who were in the basic science lab, but also

418
00:23:53,220 --> 00:23:56,220
done a lot of clinical work that was very meaningful to them.

419
00:23:56,220 --> 00:23:59,420
I think that gave people an opportunity to talk about that.

420
00:23:59,420 --> 00:24:04,280
A couple of people talked about mentorship of their own, where they were able to be mentors

421
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:08,260
to either students or other residents.

422
00:24:08,260 --> 00:24:10,540
I think that was very meaningful.

423
00:24:10,540 --> 00:24:15,420
To your point, it's hard to prepare for that, but I think it's nice.

424
00:24:15,420 --> 00:24:20,260
Everyone has a life outside the lab, and everyone I think also is probably enthusiastic and

425
00:24:20,260 --> 00:24:21,260
passionate about that.

426
00:24:21,260 --> 00:24:28,940
So, maybe they'll just give us one piece of information, whether it's as fun as just vacation

427
00:24:28,940 --> 00:24:33,820
spots or cooking, or if it is really like I have a passion and even though I'm a do

428
00:24:33,820 --> 00:24:38,100
tissue culture here, I also love to mentor on the side.

429
00:24:38,100 --> 00:24:40,940
It was really nice to get a little insight into people.

430
00:24:40,940 --> 00:24:45,540
It also is just open-ended enough of a question.

431
00:24:45,540 --> 00:24:48,940
It's also open-ended enough of a question that it gives you the ability to be a little

432
00:24:48,940 --> 00:24:53,060
more creative and not just answer something point blank.

433
00:24:53,060 --> 00:24:54,060
That was a good question.

434
00:24:54,060 --> 00:24:55,060
I liked that.

435
00:24:55,060 --> 00:24:58,060
Well, thank you, David, for giving me credit for that question.

436
00:24:58,060 --> 00:25:01,660
All the other questions were yours.

437
00:25:01,660 --> 00:25:06,980
So I'm glad that I had one question of many.

438
00:25:06,980 --> 00:25:11,700
Just to go back to what you said, at the end of the day, the research project is the research

439
00:25:11,700 --> 00:25:12,700
project.

440
00:25:12,700 --> 00:25:17,580
I think organizations like to fund people doing good science, but really it's about

441
00:25:17,580 --> 00:25:18,580
the people.

442
00:25:18,580 --> 00:25:23,660
And so, just thinking to that question, it is a hard question to answer, but it really

443
00:25:23,660 --> 00:25:29,220
is an opportunity to talk about yourself in a way that helps people just get excited about

444
00:25:29,220 --> 00:25:30,220
you.

445
00:25:30,220 --> 00:25:34,980
And really, I think all of our candidates are superstars.

446
00:25:34,980 --> 00:25:40,540
We don't always know exactly what ways they're excelling outside of the lab.

447
00:25:40,540 --> 00:25:45,500
But yeah, definitely an opportunity to just talk about the things that make you shine

448
00:25:45,500 --> 00:25:48,280
and not be...

449
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:53,060
Maybe the word is humble, but maybe not really humility as much as not feel like an impostor

450
00:25:53,060 --> 00:25:54,060
about it.

451
00:25:54,060 --> 00:25:58,780
Really be able to speak about yourself in a way that's in glowing terms.

452
00:25:58,780 --> 00:25:59,780
And that's difficult.

453
00:25:59,780 --> 00:26:00,780
It's difficult for us as MDs.

454
00:26:00,780 --> 00:26:01,780
Difficult, for sure.

455
00:26:01,780 --> 00:26:02,780
Absolutely.

456
00:26:02,780 --> 00:26:03,780
Yeah.

457
00:26:03,780 --> 00:26:04,780
Yeah.

458
00:26:04,780 --> 00:26:07,460
Well, David, it's been a great conversation.

459
00:26:07,460 --> 00:26:08,460
I feel like we...

460
00:26:08,460 --> 00:26:13,300
I've learned a lot, even though we were interviewers together.

461
00:26:13,300 --> 00:26:16,300
And I feel like our audiences definitely learned a lot.

462
00:26:16,300 --> 00:26:18,420
And I want to ask that question.

463
00:26:18,420 --> 00:26:24,960
What do you feel like somebody who's listening, who's maybe preparing for such an interview,

464
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:29,340
what is one thing perhaps we haven't talked about that you want them to know?

465
00:26:29,340 --> 00:26:30,340
Yeah.

466
00:26:30,340 --> 00:26:34,020
Again, just opened enough to be a very challenging question.

467
00:26:34,020 --> 00:26:35,020
That's right.

468
00:26:35,020 --> 00:26:36,020
Thanks.

469
00:26:36,020 --> 00:26:37,020
That's good.

470
00:26:37,020 --> 00:26:38,020
Yeah.

471
00:26:38,020 --> 00:26:42,340
I think you sort of nailed it, which is the project is important.

472
00:26:42,340 --> 00:26:47,380
And certainly the people who got to the stage of the interview, it was based on the project,

473
00:26:47,380 --> 00:26:48,380
right?

474
00:26:48,380 --> 00:26:49,380
Because we read.

475
00:26:49,380 --> 00:26:56,460
But when you're there, and I think when you're interviewing a person or giving a job talk,

476
00:26:56,460 --> 00:27:00,460
I think that would be a very similar experience, giving a job talk or even just giving an invited

477
00:27:00,460 --> 00:27:02,700
seminar.

478
00:27:02,700 --> 00:27:07,940
Sometimes your job is less to wow us in a bit with how much you know, which is important,

479
00:27:07,940 --> 00:27:11,740
but also just to give us a sense that you are the person that's going to tackle that

480
00:27:11,740 --> 00:27:16,540
problem, that you want to tackle that problem, that you tell us it's an important problem

481
00:27:16,540 --> 00:27:20,500
and you feel it's an important problem and you can tell us why it's an important problem.

482
00:27:20,500 --> 00:27:21,500
I love that.

483
00:27:21,500 --> 00:27:28,020
Because as you point, you want to give resources, which is often money, but time and resources

484
00:27:28,020 --> 00:27:31,540
and money to people that just love their work.

485
00:27:31,540 --> 00:27:34,900
And so if you can communicate that and make us feel like you love your work, you've done

486
00:27:34,900 --> 00:27:37,900
your job, you know, and then the chips will fall, you know?

487
00:27:37,900 --> 00:27:41,620
So I think that's a good take home message.

488
00:27:41,620 --> 00:27:42,620
That's really awesome.

489
00:27:42,620 --> 00:27:44,600
What a great place to end.

490
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:46,340
That's just such, such great advice.

491
00:27:46,340 --> 00:27:47,340
Thank you, David.

492
00:27:47,340 --> 00:27:53,060
So to all of our listeners, you've heard David, he's, he really gave us some great, great,

493
00:27:53,060 --> 00:27:56,180
great pointers as to how to prepare for these kinds of interviews.

494
00:27:56,180 --> 00:28:01,100
If you know someone who is preparing for an interview and they would benefit from this

495
00:28:01,100 --> 00:28:03,540
episode, definitely forward it to them.

496
00:28:03,540 --> 00:28:08,060
Please share if you are a mentor and your mentees are getting ready for this type of

497
00:28:08,060 --> 00:28:14,020
brand application interview, definitely forward it to them so that they also can benefit from

498
00:28:14,020 --> 00:28:15,940
the insights that David shared.

499
00:28:15,940 --> 00:28:18,260
David, thank you for being on the show.

500
00:28:18,260 --> 00:28:19,860
Thank you very much.

501
00:28:19,860 --> 00:28:20,860
All right.

502
00:28:20,860 --> 00:28:35,340
Bye everyone.

503
00:28:35,340 --> 00:28:40,700
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast, where academic

504
00:28:40,700 --> 00:28:46,420
clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they

505
00:28:46,420 --> 00:28:47,500
have a mentor.

506
00:28:47,500 --> 00:28:53,620
If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.

507
00:28:53,620 --> 00:28:55,340
Someone else needs to hear it.

508
00:28:55,340 --> 00:28:59,380
So take a minute right now and share it.

509
00:28:59,380 --> 00:29:04,860
As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation

510
00:29:04,860 --> 00:29:10,900
of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.