Time to stop asking for permission with Dr. Gabby Hobbs

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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills

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to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.

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When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find

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that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research

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program.

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Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.

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However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.

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For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians

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the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.

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Hey everyone, welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast.

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I'm your host Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is such a pleasure to be talking with you today.

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Today I am extraordinarily happy to introduce our guest on the show, and it is Dr. Gabby

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Hobbs.

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She is an amazing, amazing clinician, researcher, scientist.

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She's done so many things, and I won't do it justice if I try to introduce her.

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So I'm actually going to ask Dr. Hobbs.

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Gabby, welcome to the show.

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Please introduce yourself to our audience.

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Hey Teyasi, thank you so, so much for that very kind introduction.

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So my name is Gabby Hobbs.

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I am the clinical director of the Leukemia Service at Mass General Hospital in Boston,

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and I am a clinical investigator, and I specialize in the care and research of patients with

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maloperulative neoplasms.

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I'm so excited to be here with you.

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Thanks for joining us.

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So Dr. Hobbs, you're not a PhD.

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Nope.

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You did MD training, like I did.

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And one of the things that I think definitely was hard for me is coming through all this

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clinical training and then turning out on the other side as a clinician scientist or

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clinician researcher, physician scientist, however you want to address yourself.

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But I wonder, what was the turning point for you at which you were like, yeah, I'm a physician

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scientist.

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I'm doing this.

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I'm a researcher.

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What was that turning point for you?

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It's funny that you ask it that way because when you say it, I'm like, oh, is that really

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what I am?

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So I don't know that there's ever a point where you're like, oh yeah, this is what I

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am.

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But in all seriousness, I think as I went through fellowship, all of the training was

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geared at making me or making my co-fellows, both clinicians and investigators.

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And so I kind of left fellowship feeling like that was my reality and that's what I was,

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that's who I was.

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But really you realize once you become faculty that actually becoming that person takes many

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years, many, many years in the making.

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And so I think little by little that reality dawns on you when you first start and it takes

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a few years to actually believe that that's what you are.

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And I think that's part of why when you asked me, you know, when did that dawn on you?

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I don't always believe it still.

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You know, it's an interesting thing you share.

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It's like you talk about this gradual process of becoming, right?

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You went through fellowship where that was the goal of the fellowship.

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But in the process, you didn't end the fellowship as a researcher.

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You've kind of been growing into the role.

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Now I want you to talk about the aspects of your fellowship that contributed to you kind

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of becoming at least a little bit more of the investigator that you were before entering

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into fellowship.

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Because I don't think everybody has that experience in fellowship.

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Yeah, sure.

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So I think a lot of it depends really on where you get your training.

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And for me, it felt like my fellowship program only had one viable endpoint.

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I mean, and then that's, you know, I'm sort of simplifying a little bit because of course

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not all my co-fellows ended up doing this.

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But the question really was at the beginning of fellowship, not are you going to do research,

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but are you going to be a lab investigator or are you going to be a clinical investigator?

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And so it always felt like that was the purpose of fellowship to learn how to become some

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form of an investigator.

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So throughout my whole fellowship training, all of everything that I did in my second

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and third year in particular was geared at learning how to write clinical trials, identifying

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a mentor that I could write a clinical trial with, thinking about projects that I could

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accomplish during fellowship, but it was all very contained.

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And it was rare that I had full autonomy or ownership over the direction of where the

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research was going.

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So it felt like a very safe way to be a researcher under the wings of somebody that was already

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fully established.

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And so then that's why I think when you're a fellow, it's easier to believe that you're

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that investigator because you already participate in research that was established by somebody

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before you.

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So then tell me about the transition.

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So now transitioning into your own independent faculty career, how did you keep that fire

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going with regards to being an investigator?

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Yeah, no doubt.

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I think the most challenging transition, and I heard this when I was a fellow, and I really

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do believe that the most challenging transition in medicine is, or at least for me was, when

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I finished fellowship and then I started from scratch in a new location as an attending

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physician and all of a sudden my colleagues around me expected me to be the person that

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I told them I was going to be when I interviewed in fellowship.

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And that transition is really difficult, especially I think if you go to a new institution where

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you're not known by your colleagues there as the fellow that did X, but all of a sudden

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you are this attending and by definition you brought in this expertise.

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And so there for a few years I really felt like I have to fake it until I make it.

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And it felt very uncomfortable initially because I was expected to be an expert in an area

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where I personally didn't feel like I had enough expertise because I had just been a

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fellow yesterday.

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And so that initial transition was difficult.

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What kept my fire going and what has really been very, very, very helpful for me from

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the beginning to where I am now is having a very clear direction and having a very well

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defined niche.

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And I can't emphasize that enough and I talk to my trainees about that all the time.

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When you start in a new place, when you transition, having a clear goal and whether that is a

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niche in a specific area of oncology or a specific type of research, I find that that

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really helped to direct me.

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So when I felt like I wasn't necessarily making progress or I didn't exactly know what the

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immediate next step was to accomplish a task, I at least knew where I was going overall.

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So even if I was hitting some dead ends, because man, you hit a lot of dead ends at the beginning,

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at least having a clear sense of, well, these doors may not be opening the way that I want

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them to or this project may not be working, but my overall goal is to get to here.

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And so when I started as faculty, to put it in perspective, I was hired to be the myeloproliferative

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neoplasm person.

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So I was going to be the expert in MPNs and I was going to start a research program for

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MPN patients.

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And so I was very fortunate that I was able to do that.

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That's what I wanted to do.

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And I had a lot of room to do what I wanted to do, but also that room is overwhelming.

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And so sometimes it's kind of difficult to actually get started.

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And so knowing that I had a clear mission really, really helped.

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So I think that's very helpful for Neutronies.

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I love it.

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Gabby, there are a couple of things you said that I really do want to highlight for our

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listeners.

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You talked about how you were faking it until you made it.

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And one of the things that I think is so important is just the mindset shift.

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It's like everybody was looking at you as the expert, no matter what they thought about

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the fact that you had just come from fellowship, you were the expert.

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And somehow you were just filling in until you believed that you were the expert.

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And so what you were doing at the beginning didn't necessarily change until you finally

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figured out that, hey, I am the expert.

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But it was really your mind was changing.

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One day you had been the fellow and the next day you were the attending.

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And that shift was just so big.

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I mean, it was so big for me too.

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It was like, you know, they seem to be buying this thing.

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Okay.

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But it's so important.

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And the biggest, I think the person we most have to convince is ourselves, right?

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It's not really other people.

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And maybe there's some other people who will never be convinced, whatever.

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But really the biggest convincing we need to do is for ourselves.

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And so a lot of the work really is mindset work is changing our minds about how we see

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ourselves so that if we're fortunate, we start to see ourselves as other people see us.

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But sometimes we're not fortunate and we have to see ourselves the way we see ourselves,

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whether other people see us that way or not.

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So definitely I love the way you highlighted the mindset work that really needs to happen

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to make that transition.

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And then the second thing you said that was so awesome, I just want to just drill down

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on it is just you talked about how you had a clear sense of where you were going.

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And I have to say, Gabby, everybody doesn't have that clear sense, but you did.

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And that was like your guiding compass so that even when you're lost, like the GPS,

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you put in the directions, you're going to get there or you have no GPS.

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You go ask me, you're like, I'm on my way here.

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How do I get there?

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And so I feel like it's so important just to help people recognize that you just got

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to own your space.

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You've got to own where you are and just determine that that's where I'm going.

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And it's not clear, it's kind of fuzzy.

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And sometimes you hit dead ends, like you said, but we've really got to take ownership

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of it.

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Anyway, so I wanted to just highlight those two things and then ask if there was anything

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else you wanted to add to that.

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Yeah, I love that you summarize the second part of owning your space.

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I think one of the things that probably makes the transition from trainee to faculty is

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learning that your space is yours to be owned and truly taking that very, very, very seriously.

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We're so used to in our training being told when we have to be on call, when we have to

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have elective time or given projects, everything is like more packaged.

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And then all of a sudden you become faculty.

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And whether or not you're fortunate to have one very clear direction or you start out

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trying to figure out what that direction is, making sure that you realize that you are

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no longer a trainee and you can create space around you to grow is just so important.

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And I've seen this time and again with a lot of junior faculty where they continue to ask

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for permission about a lot of different things, whether that be something as small as can

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I end my clinic a little bit earlier today because I have to go do whatever.

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And it's like, yes, it's your clinic.

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You can do that.

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Or that is something as simple as saying, I can't do that review or I can't participate

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in that project because those things won't fill the needs that I need to fulfill in order

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to create and develop my space and my niche and all those things.

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So realizing that that space is yours to create is also a very important part of that.

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You were talking about, Do you see the mindset of making that space your own and being successful

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in that initial growth.

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And it's not that straightforward.

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I think sometimes it takes a few years to figure out how to really carve that out.

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Yeah.

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Gabby, it's such a great point.

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It is so hard because we've been trainees for so long.

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I with med school and residency and fellowship, for me, it was 10 years.

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For some people, it's a little bit longer than that.

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But you are for 10 years or more, you've been in that mindset of like, well, this is what

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I've been asked to do.

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This is where I'm supposed to go.

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This is what the end result is supposed to look like.

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And then there's such a transition to faculty where it's like you're on your own.

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How do people accelerate that transition where they stop thinking like a trainee, acting

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like a trainee and really owning them their roles as a faculty member?

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Well, that is a hard question.

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I think there's this mixture of being humble and being able to ask all the people around

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you for as much advice as you can.

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Whereas on the other hand of that, also being able to develop boundaries that keep you sane

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and keep your career moving in the direction that you wanted to go.

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So both learning how to ask for help while also setting up some space.

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And I think that that takes a little bit of time.

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And I think we don't talk about it enough.

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I've seen it a lot with like I was saying before with younger faculty where they show

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up and they're still in that trainee mentality where they're looking around and saying, all

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right, well, who's going to give me a project?

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And a lot of becoming a successful attending with whatever research you're going to do

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to fill the research career that you want has to be self-driven.

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And so learning how to both ask for it and create on your own I think is sometimes probably

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part of what makes that transition so difficult.

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And I think just if I could at least tell it to your audience and just in general to

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the people that I mentor is learning how to create their own project or make their own

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space.

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I don't want people to wait for things to be given to them.

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I love what you said though about asking for help because what you're not asking is who

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should I become?

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Who should I be?

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You're saying this is what I want to become.

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This is the help I need to get there and that's so important.

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I feel like we put people in a tough situation where we're saying, who should I be?

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How should I live in this world?

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And it's like, they can't tell you.

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And sometimes people are earnest and they're really just trying to help you, but they're

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not helping you because they can't tell you who you are, who you need to be, but they

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can give you help to get there if you've decided who that person needs to be.

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And so I think some of the work you're talking about, like in a sense is unspoken is that

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you got to figure out who you want to be, how you want to show up in this world.

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And nobody's going to help you do that.

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You kind of have to decide on your own.

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And for me, working with a coach helped me figure that out.

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It took me a long time, but some people kind of know from the beginning.

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So when you're going to ask for help, you're not saying, well, should I be a myeloma person?

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I know I'm kind of the MDS person, but should I be the myeloma person?

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And maybe they think it's yes, but now you're kind of off track.

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But if you're like, I'm the MDS person, this is what I came to do or I'm the MPN person.

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Then they can be like, well, this is what the MPN person should be doing, or this is

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what you should be applying for.

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These are the resources available to you.

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So they can help you if you give them something to help you with.

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What a great point.

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And I think learning how to ask for that help is not something that everybody knows how

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to do immediately out of fellowship.

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Because I think that what more people are asking is either to be given something that's

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already created or asking for an identity.

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And no mentor is going to either give you your identity or shape that research career

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for you.

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I think one of the beauties and also one of the things that's so overwhelming about academics

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is that you do have the flexibility to craft your career to a way that makes sense for

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you.

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And nobody's going to care about that as much as you are going to care about that.

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And so learning how to look around you and saying, listen, this person may not be in

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my exact same space, but the type of research that they do in this area appeals to me.

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So I'm going to ask them specifically for that.

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And so taking the most of your environment in order to craft that career for yourself

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until you yourself figure out exactly what you want them to look for is so important.

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But not going and asking, please shape this career for me.

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I think I want to be around here is pretty difficult, I think, at the beginning.

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I love what you said.

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And it really reminds me of how we can help our mentors succeed in mentoring us when we're

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clear on how they come to help us.

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And sometimes it helps us to see that we actually have more access to mentors than we thought.

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So many of us were thinking about the one big mentor who's going to shape my identity

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and give me everything I need and feed me and clothe me.

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And yeah, I mean, it's so much that we have to learn as clinicians who never did research,

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right?

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We need to learn how to write and submit manuscripts, take them all the way through revisions.

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We need to learn how to write and submit grants, take them through revisions.

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We need to learn to create writing structures.

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There's so much we need.

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And one person is really not going to be able to give us all of it.

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And if we ask them to, we're so needy, so desperate, we end up chasing off a lot of

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people who could be helpful to us.

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But when we kind of think, okay, well, I need help in grant writing, there's a grant writing

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program at my institution, I'm going to go do that.

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And then I'm going to ask my mentor, okay, I've written this first draft of this piece

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of the grant, can you help me take it further?

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It's giving them very tangible things that they can help you do.

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They can help you win.

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But when you're like, tell me, tell me how to get there.

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Tell me who I am.

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It's hard to help you win.

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And to be honest, I think a lot of people bulk at that.

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And they're like, I can't be your mentor.

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This is too much for me.

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I love that you said that.

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And I remember, sorry, when I was in fellowship, literally from day one, it was ingrained in

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my mind that I needed to find, and I always say it this way, this like unicorn of a mentor,

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this person that was going to do all of these things for me.

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And I never found that person.

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So then I thought there was something wrong with me.

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And I was like, never going to be successful in research.

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And exactly like you said, I think learning how to find mentorship from the people that

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are around you in a way that's tangible, that doesn't, that's not like you said, you know,

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please help me with everything in the world and like help shape my career is so important

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because I think one of the things that you don't realize when you're a trainee, and it's

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kind of like being a child and then a parent is really, I mean, mentors are busy, you know,

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and they're generally not mentoring one person only, and they usually have lots of responsibilities.

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And so the mentee interactions that I've had that have been the most successful and

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mentor interactions have been most successful are when there are clear agenda, there are

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recurring meetings that mentee is able to like take charge of that relationship and

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say, would it be okay if we meet with this frequency?

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Would it be okay if I send you this manuscript so you can help me with this section where

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I'm struggling?

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And so I think that that skill is one that I think should be more emphasized in fellowship

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and in like early transition, as opposed to like what I was saying before about finding

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that magical type of mentor that, you know, some people really do have and that's wonderful,

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but a lot of people don't.

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And a lot of people, even if they have that great one mentor, they still would benefit

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from asking for advice from other people that have maybe different perspectives.

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Absolutely, absolutely.

312
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And I thank you for just shedding light on that because it's so important.

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You know, honestly, I have a lot of failed mentoring relationships, not because the mentors

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failed me, but because I just didn't know what I wanted, but somehow it was there.

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I had a sense of it, even though it wasn't clearly defined.

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And instead of defining it for myself, I was asking other people to define it for me.

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And so when they took on that challenge to help me define it, then I got upset because

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I was like, that's not what I want.

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And so clarifying for ourselves what we want helps us to make the most out of our mentors.

320
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And I love what you said about making the most of people around you.

321
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The reality is everything you need is already around you.

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And to be honest, we live in a world now where it doesn't even matter where the mentor is.

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You get the most out of them.

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I mean, we meet virtually now.

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I mean, we've always met virtually.

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It's become more of a thing now, but just whoever it is across the country who has something

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you can benefit from, you can usually find a way to connect to them.

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And if you make your ask very, very specific, you're really able to do that.

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And so I wonder if you want to speak more to that as people who may be thinking, I don't

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have any mentors, there's no one here.

331
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How can they get the most out of the people around them or thinking even across the country?

332
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That is a great question and a really important skill to have.

333
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And again, something that is not spoken about enough and so I'm glad you brought it up.

334
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In the era of virtual everything, it's like you said, it's perfect.

335
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And I would say, don't be afraid to network.

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Don't be afraid to cold call or send an email to somebody that you don't know and say, hey,

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I read your whatever I saw you in this presentation, et cetera.

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Would it be okay if we set up a quick call to talk?

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And it's an art, truly.

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I think that in our training, we don't learn that much about how to network.

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Perhaps some of us have good mentors that introduced us to different people at national

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meetings or things like that.

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But I really, I didn't appreciate the importance of networking and building those connections

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in terms of finding mentorships but also finding people to collaborate with.

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And it really can be so, so, so incredibly helpful.

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I remember my father would always talk to me about this when I was a medical student.

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He was like, you have to go network.

348
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You have to talk to people.

349
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Maybe you should ask this person.

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I was like, what are you talking about?

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I don't want to do that.

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But once you become an attending, especially if you're working in a field where there's

353
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rare diseases or in general, many different careers benefit from collaborations, making

354
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:24,160
those connections is so important and getting your name out there is so important and building

355
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I think the concepts of building social capital is so important.

356
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So people are like, hey, you know what?

357
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That person called me up one time.

358
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She sounded really motivated and had these great questions, whatever.

359
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Maybe we should include her in this next project.

360
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Those little things that you don't think they're going to be a big thing in the future really

361
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can make a huge, huge difference.

362
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And I'll tell you one story.

363
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When I was starting out, because I was the only person in my institution that was focusing

364
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on the area of leukemia that I focused on, I reached out to somebody in the field that

365
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was very well known.

366
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And it was really like a cold email where I was like, I respected you, Don.

367
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Do you mind if we have a call and we talk about several how you guys started?

368
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:08,440
He was also Latino in the field of malproliferative neoplasms.

369
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There aren't that many, so you probably wouldn't know who it is.

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And to this day, he'll still remember.

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And he was like, I was just so impressed by the fact that you just called me and we talked.

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And our relationship has been a relationship now of almost a decade.

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And so little things can go a long way.

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And so reaching out to people that you're interested in and connecting with is a great

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idea.

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And sometimes you just have to swallow your ego and your pride and say, I'm just going

377
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to do this even though it makes me feel a little bit uncomfortable.

378
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I love it.

379
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:38,400
And thank you for sharing that.

380
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Everybody is excited when someone emails them and says, I love your work or I'm following

381
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,160
your work or your work is inspiration, something.

382
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:48,280
I mean, it's just like, oh, thank you.

383
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You're not sending me an email to complain about something.

384
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This is so awesome.

385
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And then if you're a young person in the field and you think that you can learn something

386
00:23:56,020 --> 00:24:01,720
from them, what an honor it is to actually say, yes, I'll talk to you.

387
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And to be honest, I think a lot of people don't get enough of that kind of people reaching

388
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out to them.

389
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So I think I want with you to encourage listeners and say, hey, if you want something and it's

390
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not at your home institution and there is someone who exists in this world, definitely

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in this country who has it, just be bold and reach out and be nice, be kind, flatter them.

392
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:27,440
Not in a bad way, but just-

393
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:29,040
It goes a long way.

394
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:34,360
Share with them what aspects of them are helpful to you or impressive to you because you notice

395
00:24:34,360 --> 00:24:37,400
them because they're doing work that is meaningful to you.

396
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,560
So definitely, definitely reach out.

397
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:43,600
I appreciate you that sharing how to network because everyone's always saying network,

398
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,080
but it's like, but how do you do it?

399
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:51,880
I don't know if you want to speak to more networking tips for our listeners.

400
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:52,880
Yeah.

401
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,160
I mean, networking is very, very important.

402
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,840
Like you said, not something that we get enough training on.

403
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:03,840
And it's really not something that I had appreciated.

404
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:13,960
And I would say take every opportunity that you can to practice networking skills.

405
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:20,840
When you're at Ash, for example, if there is an event that you feel could be potentially

406
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:27,720
interesting to you, there's like the women in medicine events on Saturday nights or there's

407
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:33,800
different types of events throughout the conference, definitely go and step outside of your comfort

408
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:34,800
zone.

409
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:38,520
Even if it may not be exactly what you want to do, stand in front of your poster, talk

410
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:43,400
to people, follow up with things, get people's contact information.

411
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:48,600
All of those, all of those are easy, easy ways to start networking.

412
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:53,160
And then definitely, you know, some, some networking stuff has been lost a little bit

413
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:57,960
with a lot of the virtual meetings because it's much harder to network with a chat on

414
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:02,840
zoom than it is to network with a coffee break in the middle of a meeting.

415
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,760
Take those opportunities to meet people in person when you can.

416
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:13,160
Like I said, national meetings are usually a very good place for that.

417
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,200
And yeah, don't, don't be afraid to seek those opportunities out in person is obviously better.

418
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:20,360
But if you can't do it in person, then like we were saying before, reach out.

419
00:26:20,360 --> 00:26:24,080
And if you don't have that person's information or you really don't feel like you could reach

420
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:29,160
out to that person directly, I'm sure there's somebody else that you can ask, Hey, do you

421
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,040
mind introducing me to this other person?

422
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,400
And so building those connections, I just can't, I know we sort of said it a little

423
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:40,880
bit already, but building those connections, especially early in your career, but really

424
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,640
throughout your career is just so important.

425
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:48,000
Remember, once you become faculty, once you are trying to be, make a name for yourself

426
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:53,960
as a researcher, it's not about grades and where you're going to match and those kinds

427
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:54,960
of things.

428
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,360
It really is about who you know and who knows you.

429
00:26:57,360 --> 00:27:00,100
And a lot of it is, you know, if they like you.

430
00:27:00,100 --> 00:27:04,840
And so if they've had good interactions with you, you've been kind to them like you were

431
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:11,120
saying to me before, people are eager in academics to collaborate with people that are nice.

432
00:27:11,120 --> 00:27:12,760
And so that's just so important.

433
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:18,820
You don't realize like how those little gestures can actually really go a long way.

434
00:27:18,820 --> 00:27:23,400
So I really would think about that very, be very purposeful about that.

435
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:24,700
Thank you for sharing that Gabby.

436
00:27:24,700 --> 00:27:28,400
You know, as you're talking, I'm reminded that, you know, being a faculty member is

437
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,560
like a choose your own adventure type of book.

438
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:37,040
I don't know if you remember those where you're like, you get to decide which way do you go.

439
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,520
And yeah, you may end up in a place where you didn't want to, but you get to walk back

440
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:42,160
and choose a different adventure, right?

441
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,360
I mean, it's just at the end of the day, the book is still there.

442
00:27:44,360 --> 00:27:46,240
You can choose a different adventure.

443
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:50,360
And so the key is that you kind of are the one leading your own program.

444
00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:52,240
You're leading your own career.

445
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:53,240
And yes, it's so awesome.

446
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,840
We have great mentors who can help guide you, but everyone doesn't have that.

447
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,920
And if you don't have that immediately before you, it doesn't mean you can't have a great

448
00:27:59,920 --> 00:28:00,920
career.

449
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:06,080
And so don't write yourself out of a career as a physician scientist or as a clinician

450
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:09,800
researcher because you don't have resources right around you.

451
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:10,800
So thank you.

452
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,480
Thank you for sharing those tips about how to network well.

453
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,240
So I want to ask, you know, I feel like we've had a great conversation.

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We've touched on a lot of things.

455
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What would you say is left on set?

456
00:28:21,020 --> 00:28:24,640
So there's someone who's listening and they're like, I just don't know if I can do this.

457
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I didn't have the same kind of great fellowship training the Dr. Hobbs had.

458
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And I don't know if I can make it.

459
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What would you say to them, Gabby, about making this, taking the step to kind of becoming

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a physician scientist?

461
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You know, one of the things that I think about a lot as I see people around me transition

462
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in different careers or perhaps leave academia is that the beauty, the beauty in academia

463
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:58,160
is that like you were saying before, it is choose your own adventure, but that is also

464
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,520
part of what sometimes makes it overwhelming.

465
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,680
So don't be, don't think that you have to do it.

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Do it if you want to do it.

467
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And if you don't enjoy it, definitely don't do it.

468
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But if you think that it's something that you're interested in, if it's something that

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you want to give it a try, remember that you are going to get out of it what you put into

470
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:21,800
it.

471
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:26,040
And I think one of the things that's so special about this type of career is exactly like

472
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:31,360
you were saying before, you see that you may walk down one path and find that you are somewhere

473
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:32,760
where you didn't intend to go.

474
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:34,400
And that can go two ways.

475
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,400
Either you backtrack and you start over, or you realize that actually that place that

476
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,080
you didn't intend to be in, actually not that bad.

477
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:42,980
And then it takes you down another road.

478
00:29:42,980 --> 00:29:47,080
I think one of the things that's beautiful about a scientific career that way is that

479
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,320
usually one question leads to many other questions.

480
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:55,080
So it can open the doors for things that you didn't necessarily expect.

481
00:29:55,080 --> 00:30:02,320
But take ownership, don't be afraid to ask, and focus on something that you're interested

482
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,760
in because otherwise it's just not worth it.

483
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,560
So make it worth it for yourself.

484
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:10,560
I love it.

485
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:11,560
Gabby, thank you.

486
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:13,200
What a beautiful note to end on.

487
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,160
I just want to share with our listeners, you heard Dr. Hobbs.

488
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:21,640
I mean, this is your own journey and you're not stuck and you can make a new thing out

489
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,160
of it if you get to a place you don't want to be.

490
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:28,240
But definitely decide that you want to be here and then move forward with it or decide

491
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,160
that you don't and then move forward with whatever you choose.

492
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:32,720
But you're not stuck.

493
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:34,040
You have agency.

494
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,360
You can make a career for yourself that allows you to thrive.

495
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:41,940
And I think Gabby's just mentioned so many things that would be helpful to so many people.

496
00:30:41,940 --> 00:30:46,500
So I want to invite you, if you have heard something that resonated with you and you're

497
00:30:46,500 --> 00:30:49,880
like, somebody else needs to hear this, share this episode with them.

498
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,920
If you're a mentor and you're like, my mentees need to hear this, please forward it on.

499
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:58,640
I think more people need to hear that this is doable, that even though it's hard and

500
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,560
even though it's challenging, there are many ways to make it work.

501
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,720
And so please share this episode as best as you can.

502
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,400
Gabby, thank you so much for being with us today.

503
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,000
It's been such a pleasure to have you.

504
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,360
Thank you for sharing gold with our audience.

505
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,360
Thank you so much for having me, Taysa.

506
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:15,360
All right, everyone.

507
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:24,000
Until next time, take care.

508
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:29,360
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast, where academic

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00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:34,760
clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they

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00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:36,160
have a mentor.

511
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:42,260
If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.

512
00:31:42,260 --> 00:31:44,000
Someone else needs to hear it.

513
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:48,040
So take a minute right now and share it.

514
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:53,520
As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation

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00:31:53,520 --> 00:32:07,040
of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do health

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00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:08,040
care.