Trailblazing new directions with Dr. Rasheeda Hall

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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills

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to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.

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When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find

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that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research

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program.

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Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.

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However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.

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For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians

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the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.

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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast.

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I am your host, Toyosi Onwuemene, and I'm excited to be here with you today.

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I am even more excited to have a very, very, very special guest on the show today, Dr.

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Rashida Hull, whom I have known for a few years, and I want her to introduce herself.

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And so I'm going to just first of all say, Rashida, welcome to the show.

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Thank you for being here.

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Thank you, Teosi, for inviting me.

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I'm really excited that you have started this podcast because I think it's going to be really

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helpful for people out there who actually are even just considering research in their

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careers and there's a real need for something like this.

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Thank you, Rashida.

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You're so kind.

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Well I want the audience to get to know you.

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So if you would please introduce yourself.

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You are many things, but really from the perspective of you as a clinician researcher.

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All right, fantastic.

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Yes.

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So as the clinician researcher, or as we might have to put in our bio sketches, I consider

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myself a physician scientist.

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I do health services research with a particular focus in geriatric nephrology.

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And if I were to say that in more specific terms, or layman terms, I would say, you know,

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I'm working to develop new ways that we can deliver geriatric care to patients who have

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kidney disease, particularly older adults who don't have the opportunity to get access

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to that care.

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And so the research activities are all around what is the information we need to develop

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interventions and then let pilot them and test the interventions and see how they could

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actually be further implemented in clinical practice and hopefully change policy.

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Wow.

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You know, Rashida, I've heard about your research over the years, the way you put it like that.

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I mean, it just seems so powerful.

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And the first question I have in my mind, which is not the question that I said I would

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ask you, is just how did you get here?

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How did you get to this place where you're doing research that really honestly is like

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paradigm shifting?

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Like you're changing people's lives through your research.

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How'd you get here?

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You know, it's interesting because I do think that our clinical experiences really can uncover

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to things that are great research questions.

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And I think personally, it's easier to see now than back then when you're in it.

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But I do recognize that this day, a lot of the things that seem to make me worry about

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patients wonder why they keep coming back into the hospital.

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What happens when they leave kind of fell in this category.

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There are certain patients who lived in nursing homes and receiving dialysis and we tended

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to see come in and out of hospital.

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And I also, I think more broadly, when I learned about chronic kidney disease as a resident,

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it still wasn't clear who was taken care of, who was the main doctor, what's the nephrologist,

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what's the internal medicine.

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And so putting those two together really seemed to me that there's something about this group

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of patients who need a lot of care and they're overlooked in a lot of ways.

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They need access to care.

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They may not even realize it.

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And so I think that tying together was like the perfect population for me to really try

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to make a difference in because it also intersects with not just health equity and despairing

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from care and literacy.

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It's all these things that I think in general, the culture points towards having patients

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make their own decisions.

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But many of our patients, especially older adults receiving dialysis, aren't equipped

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to do that.

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And so trying to kind of put things in place to provide the care they need, they may actually

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don't even know they need.

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But so yeah, I think that's the picture I think.

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And I'll start a residency and fellowship.

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Wow.

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And it sounds like it's been quite a journey to get to where you are right now.

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And I just wonder at what point in your journey did you say, you know what, I'm a physician

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scientist.

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Where was that defining moment for you?

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That is an interesting question because we, it's like there's something you're aiming

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for, right?

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And so yeah, when do you start to feel like you're owning it?

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And I would say like the very first research project as a medical student, absolutely not.

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Neither was the first project I did in residency or when I first got my K award.

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I feel like I was still in the sort of like, I'm trying to do research.

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I'm trying and so I do think that probably the most defining moment for me probably was

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when I submitted an R01 for the first time, when I can see that it was a lot of my own

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thought processes and efforts and my own decision making that got it through the finish line,

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not even knowing the outcome of it.

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But I think that truly was one of the most defining moments.

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Thank you for sharing that, Rasheeda.

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So it sounds like, you know, all along you've been a physician scientist.

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You've been growing into the role.

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It is really putting together this big grant where you were able to pull together so many

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things in this, the many decisions that made up this big grant.

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And you looked at your finished work and you're like, I'm a physician scientist.

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And that's interesting because it's not the first grant you submitted, clearly.

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It's not the first grant you were awarded, clearly.

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So I wonder what was it about this grant?

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Why did this grant really, really, why was this grant specific and particularly meaningful

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to you?

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I think it goes to the decision making, right?

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So even just from the beginning when you're like, okay, I want to do this.

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So you're choosing, I'm choosing to submit a grant, not someone else telling me I have

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to or I'm being forced to run out of time.

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It definitely was the choice.

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I think that that leads with it, right?

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And then what is the topic going to be about?

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And I feel like I really own both of those decisions.

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No one was making me submit the grant when I did.

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And also the focus of the grant and what I say is the end goal.

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I think those are the two driving points because I think with prior grants, while I definitely

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like what I was proposing, it still felt like it was a lot of guidance from mentors and

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the goal was just the grant.

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It felt like you didn't even get a grant.

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So I definitely think this was a shift to where I can see what I was creating and the

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reason why I wanted to do it.

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That's so beautiful.

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And Rashid, I've known you for a long time.

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You've been creating amazing things for a long time.

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Thank you.

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But I love what you're talking about.

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I think what I see you saying is that this is really, you owned it from the beginning,

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from creation, from like the inception all the way to the finish line and just having

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completed that project where you could look back and say, you know what, this is my work,

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my idea, my creation and really taking ownership of it.

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It sounds like this was the first grant in which you felt like you just brought all of

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yourself to just lead all the way to the end.

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Yeah.

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And not that I didn't ask for help or get feedback, but I definitely, I feel like it

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was more clear that I was the one making the final decision on everything.

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In fact, I think that's what made it actually some way fun and kind of freeing because,

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you know, like, all right, let's go.

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Got to get done.

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I love it.

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I love it.

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Now tell me what has been your greatest advantage on this journey?

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Because you've come so far in, I think, a short period of time.

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What has kept you, what has allowed you to be so successful?

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Oh, so when I thought about this, on one hand, I paused about the word advantage.

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So I think I'll answer success first.

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And that, I think externally, it would be mentors who actually cared and thought I had

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potential, but maybe it's also the early success with grants when I came onto faculty.

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And I don't know if that's like, oh, I applied to so many, I finally got them, or just that

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these committees were willing to bet on me.

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Because I think one of the biggest challenges for us, especially those who are underrepresented

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in medicine, is that sometimes you just need someone to bet on to do both emotional support

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and the financial support of the grant.

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And so I definitely think just having the opportunity was enough to give me the advantage,

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right?

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So I took it and I tried to make the most out of the early funding I received.

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And then I think, personally, like what I do is, I think a lot of them think that we

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are particularly organized.

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And I think one of the things that works for me is just trying to create a strategy for

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how everything gets done, and kind of starting to make use of the calendar and time management

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and those types of things, I think have always been something innate for me, even in college,

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my nickname was Agenda, because I would sit down, write a schedule on a napkin and decide

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what I was studying every hour.

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So that type of, I guess, attention to time and using it, I think, has been very useful

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for me, considering how much work does go into writing grants and papers and so on.

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All right.

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So I hear you saying two things.

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So the first thing you talked about, at least that resonated with me, was you were putting

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in all this work, you're making all these efforts, applying for all these grants.

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And finally, when you got one of these awards, it was a validation of all the work you've

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been doing so far.

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And it really kind of gave you a boost to keep going.

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Because I think otherwise, it would have just kind of felt futile.

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But it's funny, you talk about people giving you an opportunity.

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And I think of it as both.

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They're giving you an opportunity, but you're taking it too.

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And a lot of that too is your preparedness.

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So and the second thing I heard you say, you are very organized.

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And being able to have structure to put these big applications where there's so many moving

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pieces or so many parts, you are the kind of person who essentially are practicing the

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preparation meets opportunity.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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I love that.

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Oh, it's good.

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It's good.

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And these are learnable skills.

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And I think I want to highlight them for our audience, because sometimes there's a sense

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like, wow, she's so amazing.

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She's so wonderful.

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And she is.

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The thing is that people can learn to be organized.

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People can learn to put structures in place that help them to move a lot of things forward.

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And I think, Rashida, you're a great example of that.

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Just you are very organized and that allows you to take big things and make them small

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and move them forward.

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Yeah.

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And I think that to your point, and things that I've learned skills and people have different

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gifts.

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And I think for myself, sometimes I may not be...

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I would say one of the things I still need to work on as far as like a quote unquote

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weakness, might be just really be willing to think outside of box and be extremely creative

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in what is possible in science.

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And so a listener might feel like they have that down, but they may be a little less organized.

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And so those things all can come together and you can build on your weaknesses in a

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variety of ways to get where you want to go.

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Thank you for pointing that out, Rashida.

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You talk about weaknesses, which I think in science we're always thinking about how are

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we unique?

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We're always going back to the place where we're not as strong.

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But I do think it just highlights the fact that there are so many opportunities for collaboration.

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I am really great in structure.

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I bring the structure to this project.

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And then there's someone who's like, I think outside the box, I don't care about structure.

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And so both people are able to complement each other.

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And that can be the power of collaboration.

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Now talk to me about your greatest disadvantage.

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You know, you've done all these great things, but what have been challenges along the way?

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What's been the greatest challenge?

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So, yeah, this is an interesting one.

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I think it's almost the reverse of what I mentioned before as far as support, mentor,

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excuse me, who is willing to bet on me and says, you know, I believe you can do this.

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You got potential, willing to help me.

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That has been a great advantage to me.

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But prior to that experience was mentoring, that was almost the opposite of that.

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And so in that very early period when I was trying to find my way, trying to understand

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like the fundamentals of research and possibly also when you're in it, you're learning the

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culture.

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It's like I was getting commentary that my ideas weren't good enough, that I wasn't moving

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fast enough, that I would never make it in research.

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So that effect.

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And I think that when you're receiving information like that, then it's almost there's so much

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of an internal fight to not believe that too.

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And so there's still probably a little element that still lingers there despite achieving

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grants to this point.

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But yeah, these are formative years even as a grown up, but you're trying to achieve something

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new.

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And so that has been the biggest hurdle.

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Yeah, definitely.

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Thank you for highlighting that hurdle, Rashida.

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I think it is the hurdle of many of our listeners.

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So I mean, we're great people, right?

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We've done so many things and every step of the way people, there's always the, you haven't

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done more.

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Here's the next thing.

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Here's the next thing.

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And one of the things I love that you talked about is that you were learning the fundamentals

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of research or learning the basics, the culture of research, which is really different from

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the culture of clinical care, which is our training or maybe a 10 year period.

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And when we think about PhDs who are professional researchers, they're steeped in the culture

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and the fundamentals of research from the very beginning.

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They're literally all of their training is about the research.

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But for us, we finish our training, we graduate, we're clinicians, and then know we're starting

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with the research piece.

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And that is hard.

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It's a very formative part of our experience as researchers.

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And so then we're vulnerable to people who come and tell us that we're not good enough.

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And it's not that we're not good enough.

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It's just that we're just starting.

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We're babies.

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Babies are not expected to be masters.

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We look like masters because we finished these great things, but we're just starting.

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And so we are vulnerable at the very beginning to people who don't believe in us, don't give

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us opportunities, who disparage our ideas.

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And I have to say that that's really hard.

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And I think that it's a challenge for many, many people, which now then brings me to the

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last question, which I think it feels like it's a natural outflow of the place in the

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conversation that we're at.

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What do you say to someone who's there?

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Who's like, well, I'm trying to make this work, but all around me, I see people who

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say I can't make it.

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What do you tell them?

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How do they come through that phase like you've been able to overcome that?

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Yeah, so I could talk to my former self, which is interesting because it would have been

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nice to have someone like myself to come along back then.

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You know, I think it's like, so what is it about what this person's saying is actually

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true?

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Because what we run into is internalizing a statement, which surely can often just be

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an opinion.

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So what is true about that and how we can kind of disentangle fact from fiction and

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hold on to facts and decide what we can kind of move forward with respect to that.

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So I think that's one of the first things I would say to former self.

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And I think the other thing is that sometimes learning new things is hard, right?

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And so it is often the natural instinct to kind of delay doing something hard, something

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that's difficult.

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I remember like the very first manuscript I wrote as a fellow that took forever to get

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to a first draft.

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And I bet a huge part of that was because I had never done it before and it just seemed

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insurmountable, so hard to wrap my head around what I was doing.

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And so I think, you know, hard doesn't mean impossible.

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And that will be the second piece of advice that we don't have to be afraid to try something

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that's hard.

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And also just to remind yourself of what we've already done.

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If you already have completed medical school and residency, this is a different kind of

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hard, but it definitely is a reflection of what you can still accomplish at this stage

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too.

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Thank you for those words of encouragement, Rachida, which are so awesome.

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I mean, it's funny, as you're talking about your first manuscript, I'm remembering my

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height.

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I struggled.

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I think I had to bring someone in to help me finish.

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It was so hard.

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I had to practice and pray.

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It wasn't because I was a loser.

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It was just that, you know, I had never really done something like that before.

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And it's helpful to know that.

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And it's interesting.

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So your older self can now say that to your younger self, but at that time you couldn't

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do that.

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You didn't know.

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So I just wonder, where did you find the community or the voices that told you that you could?

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Where did those messages come from to help you keep going?

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Yeah, that's a good one.

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What helped me keep going?

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I mean, I think back then it really was kind of a church community and Bible study, things

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to that effect that really were helpful and definitely still are.

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I think though in recent years, especially after transitioning to faculty, having children

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and now there's so much more to juggle in life.

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When I first, and that was when I first encountered having an executive coach.

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And I think it was that initial exposure really has been extremely helpful for me to recognize

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something we can reflect back to me, essentially what I'm thinking and kind of see, oh, you

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know what?

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That doesn't make sense.

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Yeah, of course I could still do that.

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And so I think that in addition to the faith community and friends has been extremely helpful.

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Thank you for saying that, Rashida.

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So you bring up two things that are so important.

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Number one is community.

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We can't do this alone.

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And we didn't come through medical school residency fellowship by ourselves.

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We really didn't have communities that helped us come through.

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And as we're starting a new venture in research or research training, we need community to

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help us get through too.

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And sometimes when we look around and maybe we have mentors who don't necessarily believe

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that we can make it, or we have communities at work or in our research spaces that may

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not think we can make it, there are communities elsewhere.

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And so we can tap into all communities that we are already part of that encourage and

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support us to help lead us through.

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And then the second piece is coaching.

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And I totally, totally subscribe to coaching.

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And that those are some of the experiences, my work with my executive coach that really

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helps me make those mind shifts and mind transfer and maintenance.

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And so I really, really appreciate the perspective of somebody else who's totally outside of

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the picture helping me think through comments that I may have received that bother me that

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don't let me move forward.

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And it's like, yes, is that true?

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What about it is true?

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What about it triggers you?

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And so those are great things to have someone help you think through.

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And when something's hard, well, why is it hard?

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Is it truly that you don't know how to do it?

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Or is there something else going on internally?

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And now those types of questions that you can, that anyone can ask themselves, right?

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But definitely really highlights the value of coaching and how that can really kind of

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help someone accelerate their careers.

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Absolutely.

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And now Rosita, you are a coach.

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Not only were you coached, you're also coaching.

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Could you speak a little bit about that?

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How do you help people as they're coming along this journey as a coach who's also a successful

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researcher?

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Yeah, thank you for asking.

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I think this is really interesting because I think that coaching is such an opportunity

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to help other people, to serve other people in a different way than the way we do research.

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And the way that I'm choosing to pursue it, as you described, really trying to help people

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with mindset shifts, especially when it comes to helping women academics who are trying

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to submit grants, to write papers, and in particular doing it without losing themselves,

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without having an experience of burnout.

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And I think part of why this is so interesting to me is because I've had the experience of

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being coached and I see the benefits of it.

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It's not limited to getting the work done for your research, but it definitely is something

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that informs how you live your life outside of work, including family, life, children,

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marriage.

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It can sprinkle over into other things.

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And so I think any thing that can serve you and serve others can be so valuable.

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And that's really why I want to be a coach, more of a coaching.

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That's awesome.

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Thank you for sharing that, Rashida.

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I hear you talking about you're really taking care of the whole person.

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It's like you're a researcher, but you're a whole person.

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You've got all these facets to your life.

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How do you bring them all together so that you're whole and you're actually enjoying

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the journey rather than just slugging through?

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Yes, because it is that word journey that I've really been thinking about a lot lately.

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That life's a journey.

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Everything that we're aiming for, it's all about that process of getting there and trying

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to live in the moment, living in the journey and not waiting to live once you've achieved

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some outcome.

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And I think that's another one of the main things I like to emphasize with clients because

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that really helps get someone in place to do the work that they're interested in now

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without a lot of concern about what could happen in the future.

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That's awesome.

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And I'm glad that you are helping others in this journey.

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You have been my peer coach for several years now, and I know how much I've benefited from

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that.

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And I'm so excited for your clients and the benefit that they'll get from coaching with

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you.

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So if we have someone in our audience who's like, I want to work with Dr. Rashida.

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Where can they find you?

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So you can find me on Twitter at Rashida underscore hall MD or if you even weren't interested

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in emailing me directly, it's Rashida at makeinternalshifts.com.

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Awesome.

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All right.

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You all heard it.

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I will also post that in the show notes, everybody, so that if you want to connect with Dr. Hall

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really in your experience as a clinician researcher, the physician scientist, and also the coach,

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I will give you the information and you can reach out to her.

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She's definitely I know she's accepting clients, so please make use of that.

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Rashida, it has been such a pleasure talking with you.

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Thank you for being on the show.

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I know that our audience has learned so much from your story.

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And there's so much I know that you haven't shared that so much to you.

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I do appreciate the pieces that you shared.

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Thank you, Rashida.

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Everyone, thank you so much for listening today.

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It has been such a pleasure listening to Dr. Rashida Hall, and she's just shared some amazing

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insights.

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I want to ask you if you have been blessed, if you have loved what she's shared, if you

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00:27:32,180 --> 00:27:35,940
gotten insights from it, think about someone else who needs to hear this.

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Think about someone who is younger at the beginning stages of their process, and they're

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like, I don't think I can do this.

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Think about someone who needs to hear her words of wisdom and share this episode with

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00:27:46,900 --> 00:27:47,900
them.

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Also, sign up for our weekly newsletter.

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We'll continue to share insights to help encourage you and support you along the journey.

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Thank you all for listening today.

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Thank you again to Dr. Rashida Hall for being a guest with us today.

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And I look forward to talking with you again next time.

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Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic

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00:28:15,460 --> 00:28:21,140
clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they

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have a mentor.

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00:28:22,260 --> 00:28:28,380
If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.

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00:28:28,380 --> 00:28:30,140
Someone else needs to hear it.

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00:28:30,140 --> 00:28:34,180
So take a minute right now and share it.

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As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation

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of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.