The player is loading ...
Sept. 2, 2024
When the ideal mentor has a poor reputation
In this episode, Dr. Onwuemene discusses the challenging decision of choosing a mentor who seems perfect on paper but carries a poor reputation. This dilemma is not uncommon, especially in academia, where reputation and reality can sometimes clash.
Key Takeaways:
- Take What You Hear Seriously:
- Don't dismiss the information you hear about a potential mentor. Take it seriously enough to investigate .
- Ask Questions:
- Engage with people who have firsthand experience. Create a safe and confidential environment where they feel comfortable sharing their experiences.
- Treat Informants with Respect:
- When gathering information, approach it without bias. Don’t dismiss someone's experience based on assumptions.
- Clarify Your Own Goals:
- Understand why this mentor seems ideal for you. Is it their expertise, their connections, or something else?
- Observe Their Interactions:
- Pay attention to how the mentor interacts with others, especially in stressful situations.
- Clarify the Rules of Engagement:
- Set boundaries and expectations for the relationship from the outset. Be clear about what behaviors are acceptable and what your exit strategies are if things go awry.
- Go In with Eyes Wide Open:
- Approach the mentorship with a realistic mindset. Acknowledge the mentor’s reputation and prepare for any potential challenges.
Final Thoughts:
Choosing a mentor with a poor reputation is a serious decision that requires careful consideration. By following these seven steps, you can enter the relationship strategically and protect yourself from potential pitfalls.
Sponsor/Advertising/Monetization Information:
This episode is sponsored by Coag Coach LLC, a leading provider of coaching resources for clinicians transitioning to become research leaders. Coag Coach LLC is committed to supporting clinicians in their scholarship.
Looking for a coach?
Sign up for a coaching discovery call today: https://www.coagcoach.com/service-page/consultation-call-1
Transcript
1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,860
Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills
2
00:00:05,860 --> 00:00:11,260
to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.
3
00:00:11,260 --> 00:00:17,340
As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.
4
00:00:17,340 --> 00:00:22,380
When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find
5
00:00:22,380 --> 00:00:27,780
that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research
6
00:00:27,780 --> 00:00:29,200
program.
7
00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:35,480
Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.
8
00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:40,580
However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.
9
00:00:40,580 --> 00:00:46,200
For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians
10
00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,800
the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.
11
00:00:51,800 --> 00:01:01,320
Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.
12
00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,080
Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast.
13
00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:08,360
I'm your host Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is an absolute pleasure to be talking with you
14
00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:09,360
today.
15
00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:10,360
Thank you so much for tuning in.
16
00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:14,400
Today I'm talking about the ideal mentor with a poor reputation.
17
00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:17,360
Yep, the ideal mentor with a poor reputation.
18
00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:21,760
What do you do when you're like, this is the mentor for me, but I don't like what
19
00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:22,760
I'm hearing.
20
00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:27,280
And this actually comes from a recent coaching session, and this question came up with one
21
00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:33,360
of our clients who is very interested in potentially pursuing a relationship, but they have heard
22
00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:36,380
a couple of things that are interesting about this mentor.
23
00:01:36,380 --> 00:01:38,240
So what do you do with that?
24
00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:44,480
And I want to say that when I think back on my own experiences, I realized that I didn't
25
00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:49,000
always pay attention to my inner gut feeling like I should have.
26
00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:52,080
I thought, no, let's just be logical about this.
27
00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:53,720
Clearly this person's really brilliant.
28
00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:54,720
They succeeded.
29
00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:57,440
They've had a lot of mentees.
30
00:01:57,440 --> 00:01:59,400
It must just be them.
31
00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:08,320
And so I'm here to help you not make the mistakes that I have made and just help you think about
32
00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:14,280
how do you strategically enter into such a relationship with your eyes wide open if you
33
00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:15,800
should choose to venture forward.
34
00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:20,880
So I'm going to talk about seven reasons, well, seven things you should consider, seven
35
00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:26,040
things you should consider when you find the ideal mentor who has a poor reputation.
36
00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:27,040
Okay.
37
00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:32,680
The first thing you want to know is you want to take everything you hear very seriously.
38
00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:34,720
Now take everything you hear seriously.
39
00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:38,080
I didn't say believe everything you hear, right?
40
00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:41,280
There are always many sides to any story.
41
00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:45,200
So don't believe everything you hear, but take what you hear seriously.
42
00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:50,100
Take what you hear seriously, especially if it's a reputation that's been built, right?
43
00:02:50,100 --> 00:02:53,240
It's one thing if one person said, eh, I had a bad experience.
44
00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:57,360
It's another thing if people are like, no, no, no, no, no, this is a consistent thing.
45
00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:03,520
And you now have to do due diligence to understand what are the issues at play.
46
00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:08,560
So you're taking it seriously, allows you to say, let me investigate.
47
00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:12,480
Let me make sure I fully understand what is going on.
48
00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:17,160
What you don't want to do is dismiss it, but you don't want to do is be so desperate that
49
00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:21,680
you're like, well, I can't find another mentor and this is absolutely the best and most important
50
00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:25,280
mentor and this person is the ideal mentor and I don't care.
51
00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:26,280
I'm just going to go forward.
52
00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:28,040
You don't want to do that.
53
00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:33,360
First of all, because you're not desperate.
54
00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:37,820
There are other mentors and even if this one is the ideal mentor, there will always be
55
00:03:37,820 --> 00:03:39,420
other mentors.
56
00:03:39,420 --> 00:03:45,880
And so what you want to do is just take a deep breath, take your time and do your due
57
00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:47,040
diligence.
58
00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:52,120
So the first thing you want to do is take what you've heard seriously.
59
00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,080
That's number one.
60
00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,240
Number two is ask questions.
61
00:03:56,240 --> 00:04:00,200
Now remember I said number one, that you don't have to believe everything you hear, but you
62
00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,120
don't want to take it seriously enough to start asking questions.
63
00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:04,600
And so this is important.
64
00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:05,600
You're doing your due diligence.
65
00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:10,480
And part of that is going and saying, hey, help me understand this mentor's specific
66
00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:11,480
reputation.
67
00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:13,640
Help me understand what's happening.
68
00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:19,140
It is helpful to ask people firsthand who had an experience of this mentor.
69
00:04:19,140 --> 00:04:25,680
Now I will tell you that if you're in academia, many people will not tell you about their
70
00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:27,240
experience because they're afraid.
71
00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:28,600
They're afraid of retaliation.
72
00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,160
They're afraid that it will come back to bite them.
73
00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:33,880
They're afraid that they might come across as ungrateful.
74
00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:38,560
And so if you're going to uncover the truth, you're going to want to be strategic about
75
00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:39,560
it.
76
00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:44,240
Number one, you're going to want to find somebody who actually has had the experience that is
77
00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:48,480
being talked about, the actual concerning experience.
78
00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:53,280
But you also want to create an atmosphere of safety and confidentiality so that they
79
00:04:53,280 --> 00:04:55,160
can share with you.
80
00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:59,880
Because the worst thing is to have someone show up and say, oh yeah, poor reputation.
81
00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:02,280
I would think twice if I were you.
82
00:05:02,280 --> 00:05:03,280
But that doesn't tell you anything.
83
00:05:03,280 --> 00:05:04,280
It doesn't tell you what happened.
84
00:05:04,280 --> 00:05:06,880
It doesn't tell you what the person did.
85
00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:12,160
But nobody owes you any explanation for why the relationship with a mentor turned sour
86
00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:13,800
or didn't go as it should have.
87
00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:15,320
They don't owe you.
88
00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:17,120
You're the one who's looking for information.
89
00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:21,920
You're the one who's making a decision that impacts upon your career or your future.
90
00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,600
You're going to be the one to create the kind of environment that allows people to speak
91
00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,080
freely and truthfully.
92
00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:29,400
How might you do that?
93
00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:36,400
Well, for one, you want to be sincere and you want to definitely make sure that they
94
00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:40,000
understand that whatever they tell you is going to be held in confidence.
95
00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:43,680
And you want to help them understand why you need the information.
96
00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:48,800
I'm really considering entering into a mentoring relationship with this person or being a mentee
97
00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,760
of this person because of XYZ.
98
00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,560
And I think it's important to my career in this way.
99
00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:58,600
For this reason, I really want to understand some of the things that I've been hearing
100
00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,120
and you've had a personal experience.
101
00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:05,000
That's why I want to really get a sense of your experience so that I can make a better
102
00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:09,240
informed decision about this relationship.
103
00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:14,200
And honestly, anybody who's been in a tight spot before with anybody, they don't want
104
00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:16,360
anybody else to end up in the same situation.
105
00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:21,000
And so they are likely to now share with you because they want to help you make an informed
106
00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:22,000
decision.
107
00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:26,080
This is the point at which people will say, look, I had to take my word for it.
108
00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,520
Maybe this was just my experience, but you want to take them seriously.
109
00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,920
And you want to ask the right questions.
110
00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:35,240
So you're not just asking about their experience.
111
00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:40,520
You're asking about, well, what may have been the trigger?
112
00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:42,440
What was the thing that may have prompted it?
113
00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:44,880
What are some patterns that they've noticed?
114
00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:48,240
What are some ways in which they wish they had been able to deal with it?
115
00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,640
What were some support structures that they leaned on?
116
00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,520
You want to really ask questions.
117
00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:55,460
Don't just gloss over anything.
118
00:06:55,460 --> 00:06:58,440
You want to really get to the bottom of it because ultimately you're going to make a
119
00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:00,440
decision.
120
00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:04,400
Quality information allows you to make a high quality decision.
121
00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:09,720
So you want to understand exactly what's happening so you can make a quality decision.
122
00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:10,720
Okay.
123
00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:11,800
That's number two.
124
00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,640
Ask questions about others' experiences.
125
00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:19,400
Number three, when you go to talk to someone, you want to treat them with respect.
126
00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:20,400
What do I mean?
127
00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:22,080
You're a respectful person.
128
00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:28,280
But what I mean is, sometimes you start listening to someone's story and maybe, let's use an
129
00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:33,200
example, maybe their English is not great and you're like, oh yeah, must be your English.
130
00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,440
Yeah, of course this person was mean to you.
131
00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:37,240
You don't even not speak English.
132
00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:38,240
That's just an example, right?
133
00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:43,640
I'm not saying anybody's English is bad, but you dismiss the person or maybe something
134
00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:49,680
else like, okay, well, this person may have shared with you that, well, this mentor was
135
00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,840
always getting on my case about finishing manuscripts on time.
136
00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:54,880
And you're like, oh, is that it?
137
00:07:54,880 --> 00:08:00,320
Well, if you weren't so lazy, he wouldn't probably have gotten on your case like that.
138
00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:02,880
And then you dismiss what the person is telling you.
139
00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:03,880
You don't want to do that.
140
00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:08,920
Don't be that person who dismisses the informant because you're like, oh, victim blaming or
141
00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:09,920
anything like that.
142
00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,920
I'm not saying the victim is correct or the person is a victim.
143
00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:18,880
I'm not even saying they're a victim, but don't say, oh, that was a you problem.
144
00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:21,720
Or it's not likely to happen to me because guess what?
145
00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:27,160
If it happened to someone, it's likely to happen again.
146
00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,480
In this area, lightning can strike twice.
147
00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:34,520
So you want to respect the person who's giving you the information.
148
00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:36,680
Don't dismiss any of their concerns.
149
00:08:36,680 --> 00:08:41,440
Even if you feel like, well, if they had just done better, then maybe the mentor wouldn't
150
00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:43,320
have acted the way they acted.
151
00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:45,280
Remember this is a reputation.
152
00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:49,600
That means it's likely happened to more than one person you want to take your informant
153
00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:50,800
seriously.
154
00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:56,040
And so treat them with respect when they share their story and they'll be more likely to
155
00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:57,080
share more with you.
156
00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:01,320
They may refer you to other people to talk with, but don't dismiss their story.
157
00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:02,320
Don't say it was just you.
158
00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:03,720
I'm going to be fine.
159
00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:08,760
You want to treat them with respect and give them the benefit of the doubt.
160
00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:09,760
Okay.
161
00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:12,200
Now you've gotten all this information.
162
00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,680
Number four is for you to clarify your own goals.
163
00:09:14,680 --> 00:09:17,320
Why is this the ideal mentor for you?
164
00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,360
What does this mentor do for you that you don't already have?
165
00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,440
And it's a really important question to ask because sometimes in academia we have this
166
00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:27,520
scarcity mentality where we're like, well, they could only be one mentor for me because
167
00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,320
this is the person who wrote the textbook.
168
00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:35,040
Here's the thing about the guy who wrote the textbook or the woman who wrote the textbook.
169
00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:39,680
In general, by the time they're writing textbooks, they've become pretty busy.
170
00:09:39,680 --> 00:09:45,080
And if you're an early career faculty member or you're a fellow who's barely done any research,
171
00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:49,080
maybe they're not the right primary mentor for you.
172
00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:51,460
And so the question is, well, what do you need to get?
173
00:09:51,460 --> 00:09:54,800
If you're like, oh, I've never done research and this person's like the best, so I want
174
00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:56,280
to learn from the best.
175
00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,560
I'm not saying that's not a bad thing.
176
00:09:59,560 --> 00:10:03,720
I'm just saying that you really probably want to look for someone who's going to give you
177
00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:07,640
the time of day, who's really going to invest in you, spend time with you, go through your
178
00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:10,360
manuscripts line by line with you.
179
00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,720
The person has written a couple of textbooks and they probably have less time.
180
00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:19,820
Now, they may have an ecosystem of senior graduate students or early career faculty
181
00:10:19,820 --> 00:10:22,560
who can help mentor you.
182
00:10:22,560 --> 00:10:23,560
And that's fine.
183
00:10:23,560 --> 00:10:27,880
You want to know that they're not going to have anything to do with you or that they're
184
00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:30,200
going to be hands on in your business all the time.
185
00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:31,440
You want to know.
186
00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:35,160
So you want to clarify for yourself, what do I need?
187
00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:37,840
And can this mentor deliver that for me?
188
00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:41,860
If you're early on, you're starting out in research, you don't have much experience,
189
00:10:41,860 --> 00:10:44,200
you need a mentor who's going to hold your hand.
190
00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:45,200
You do.
191
00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:48,560
You need a mentor who's going to encourage you, who's going to walk you through imposter
192
00:10:48,560 --> 00:10:52,580
syndrome, who's not going to see your first draft and lose it.
193
00:10:52,580 --> 00:10:55,000
You do want that.
194
00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,680
And if that's what you need, is this the right mentor for you?
195
00:10:58,680 --> 00:11:01,080
So you want to be sure what are your goals.
196
00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,760
But if all you're looking for is maybe sponsorship and you just want the person to know you enough
197
00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:07,960
to talk you up at their next meeting, great.
198
00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:09,120
You know that's what you need.
199
00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:11,560
So you can engage cautiously.
200
00:11:11,560 --> 00:11:17,280
Or maybe you know that, no, in this field, this person's name is so important and needs
201
00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,720
to be on every paper I write.
202
00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:20,720
Okay.
203
00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:24,840
If all you need is the name on a paper, does that person need to be your mentor?
204
00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:28,700
So do you understand why clarifying your goal helps you?
205
00:11:28,700 --> 00:11:34,600
If this person is well known for berating women, for example, and unfortunately in academia,
206
00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:38,640
that behavior can be tolerated if someone's successful enough.
207
00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:40,000
At least I've seen it happen.
208
00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,760
Of course, not at my institution and probably not at yours.
209
00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:47,800
But there's some people who are excellent in their work, not great mentors, and they
210
00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,000
don't necessarily treat people well.
211
00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:54,600
And so if you find out that maybe this is a mentor who berates women often and you're
212
00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:59,640
a woman, then you can ask yourself, well, if all I need is their name on a paper, then
213
00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:03,320
there's no need for me to do the weekly meetings with them where I may be at risk for this
214
00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:04,320
berating behavior.
215
00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:05,840
That's what I'm hearing about.
216
00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:10,440
Why don't I just meet with this person when the paper is done and ready to be sent out?
217
00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:15,140
And I'm like, hey, you look like the kind of guy who would give me great input.
218
00:12:15,140 --> 00:12:16,140
Would you like to be a co-author?
219
00:12:16,140 --> 00:12:19,080
Would it be fine if we can know that kind of thing?
220
00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:23,240
So you just want to be clear what you're getting from the person so that you can know whether
221
00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:27,320
you need to enter into a full research mentoring relationship with them, whether they can just
222
00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:29,160
be a career advisor.
223
00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:30,240
You want to know.
224
00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:36,400
You want to understand your goals so that you can align your goals in the relationship.
225
00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:41,000
Now if you decide that, okay, I've clarified my goals.
226
00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:42,320
This is certainly the mentor for me.
227
00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:44,720
This is absolutely the right person.
228
00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:50,080
Then you want to do number five, observe their interactions with others.
229
00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:51,160
Now this is so important.
230
00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:54,760
And I think a lot of people don't do this.
231
00:12:54,760 --> 00:13:00,280
They say, well, other people's experiences don't matter.
232
00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:01,280
I'm different.
233
00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:02,520
I'm the unicorn.
234
00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:06,320
There's no way this thing that happened to them, they yelled at you.
235
00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:12,840
Yeah, that's because you are such a scaredy cat.
236
00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:18,800
You want to just observe and just see, okay, okay.
237
00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,820
And the way this person talks with others, how are they behaving?
238
00:13:22,820 --> 00:13:26,120
You want to find them when they're stressed and you want to know how are they behaving.
239
00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:31,040
You want to find them when they're like, you know, in the challenging times is when you
240
00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:32,280
want to really observe someone.
241
00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:36,240
So that means if you're going to observe someone, you've got to give it enough time to really
242
00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:42,160
observe them at different, you know, in different modes so that you know you've seen them when
243
00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:43,160
they're stressed.
244
00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:47,180
You know, you've seen them when they're angry, when they're hungry, when they've been frustrated.
245
00:13:47,180 --> 00:13:50,320
You want to see them as much as possible in their interactions with others so that you
246
00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:55,640
can judge firsthand for yourself what this behavior looks like, right?
247
00:13:55,640 --> 00:14:00,480
So that's really important for you so that you can judge what the behavior looks like,
248
00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:01,480
okay?
249
00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:03,680
So observe their interactions with others.
250
00:14:03,680 --> 00:14:05,440
Make sure you have a clear picture.
251
00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,560
So don't just say, I'm just going to observe their interactions with men.
252
00:14:08,560 --> 00:14:11,040
It's like, no, no, no, this is a woman berating problem.
253
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:13,720
You're going to observe their interactions with women too.
254
00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,000
So you want to observe their interactions with everybody.
255
00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:20,680
You also want to, even if they're like their problem is berating women, you want to observe
256
00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:22,080
their interactions with men.
257
00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:25,320
Well, if they treat women this way, how do they treat the men?
258
00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:29,120
And maybe you'll uncover there that, you know, that's just how they treat everybody, which
259
00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:32,140
is not a good thing, but still may be helpful to know.
260
00:14:32,140 --> 00:14:34,400
Or you might find out that, oh, I get it.
261
00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:35,400
I get it.
262
00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,120
It's just, men are treated differently.
263
00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:39,120
Got it.
264
00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:40,520
So you want to observe.
265
00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:44,680
And there is, I mean, you know, he's being deceived by your eyes because maybe you'll
266
00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:48,800
observe and the person will be beautiful and kind to everyone in public, but it's really
267
00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:54,320
in the dark secret places or in the quiet of their office that they unleash their, you
268
00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:56,080
know, Frankenstein.
269
00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:57,480
It's possible.
270
00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:00,600
So that's why you want to observe in as many settings as possible.
271
00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:01,600
Okay.
272
00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:06,440
Especially with other witnesses so that you're not by yourself with this person.
273
00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:07,440
Okay.
274
00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:09,440
So observe their interactions with others.
275
00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:10,440
Okay.
276
00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:11,560
You've observed their interactions.
277
00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:13,040
You've asked questions.
278
00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,720
You're clear about your goals.
279
00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:20,520
You're now like, okay, let's say to your mentor, I'm going to ask this person to be my mentor.
280
00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:21,520
It's like, okay.
281
00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:27,040
If you're going to go in, let's clarify the rules of engagement.
282
00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:28,200
What do I mean by that?
283
00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:29,200
Okay.
284
00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:33,160
So you've heard that this person, especially when they're in a room alone with you may
285
00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,200
start to get to yelling, right?
286
00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:41,080
So you want to be clear about, well, I know what circumstances, are we going to be alone
287
00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,940
together in a room such that you feel comfortable yelling, right?
288
00:15:44,940 --> 00:15:48,920
Maybe you just have group coaching, a group mentoring meetings where you're like, okay,
289
00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:51,560
me and the postdoc will go into the meetings together.
290
00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:54,960
So you always have a witness and it makes it less likely that this is going to be berating
291
00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:57,460
happening in front of someone else, right?
292
00:15:57,460 --> 00:16:00,960
So you want to be very clear about how you're going to engage with this person.
293
00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,440
Maybe you found this person who looks, you know, is a little bit handsy.
294
00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:10,800
You're like, okay, how do I make sure that I maintain sufficient distance so that hands
295
00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:11,800
don't touch me?
296
00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:12,800
You know what I mean?
297
00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:16,400
And so I'm not condoning any behavior as good.
298
00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,320
I'm not condoning bad behavior.
299
00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,560
What I am saying is that if you decide that even after you've heard about someone's poor
300
00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:26,560
reputation that you're in go forward, you just want to understand your stopping rules.
301
00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:27,760
And that's helpful.
302
00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:30,400
If this person does this, then I will.
303
00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:32,440
If this person does this, then I will.
304
00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:37,660
You also want to be clear about like, how do you engage so that you are not put in a
305
00:16:37,660 --> 00:16:41,000
compromising situation that allows you to experience whatever the bad reputation thing
306
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:42,000
is, right?
307
00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,320
So clarify the rules of engagement primarily for yourself.
308
00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,120
It's not so much for the other person because they are who they are.
309
00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:52,240
And so if they show up and they start berating you, you don't get to say, oh, wow, they're
310
00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:53,240
berating me.
311
00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:54,240
I'm upset.
312
00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:55,880
Yeah, no, somebody told you.
313
00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:57,720
And don't get me wrong.
314
00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,760
I'm not saying that people should not seek the help they need.
315
00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:02,600
Please absolutely do that.
316
00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:08,680
But if you're entering into a mentoring relationship with someone who you know expresses specific
317
00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:14,720
poor behavior and you knowingly enter into it, you've chosen that.
318
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,840
Just want to be clear that you're making a choice here.
319
00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:21,600
And what you want to do is say, well, if this happens, then I will.
320
00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:23,440
You want to be clear.
321
00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:27,680
You want to be clear exactly what the stopping rules are.
322
00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,040
And if possible, have accountability with that.
323
00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:34,440
Hey, friend of mine, I'm starting this relationship with a mentor.
324
00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:39,400
Yes, it is a relationship because it's really about human relationships, right?
325
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:43,520
I'm starting this relationship with a mentor and I've heard that this mentor can start
326
00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:49,720
to yell, would you hold me accountable to make sure that if any of these happen, this
327
00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:51,480
is exactly what I'll do, right?
328
00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:55,200
I'm going to let the paper go and I'm going to go to another mentor, right?
329
00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:59,200
So clarify the rules of engagement before you begin.
330
00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:03,280
And number seven is going with your eyes wide open, going with your eyes wide open.
331
00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:07,360
Now, this is not the time to have rose colored glasses and say, oh, this is the best professor
332
00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:09,920
in the world and everybody else must be crazy.
333
00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:11,200
Don't do that.
334
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:12,720
You want to go in with your eyes wide open.
335
00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:20,640
You want to say, hmm, this person has been said to have a bad reputation in X.
336
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:26,400
You want to make sure that you have the opportunity to witness them in that way so that you know
337
00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:27,660
what to do, right?
338
00:18:27,660 --> 00:18:30,240
So you want to make sure that you're not blindsided.
339
00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,640
You go in with your eyes wide open, none of those rose colored glasses.
340
00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:40,600
The world is rose and the people who see it as yellow or wrong, don't be that person.
341
00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:43,080
But you want to be very clear.
342
00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:51,160
So sometimes accountability helps you be clear because you'll say, hey, can you ask me if
343
00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:55,080
I look sad, ask me about my relationship with a mentor or whatever it is.
344
00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,160
But anyway, at the end of the day, if you decide you're going to move forward to the
345
00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:02,760
mentor who doesn't have a great reputation, you want to make sure that you have eyes in
346
00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:05,760
the back of your head.
347
00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:08,280
Okay, no eyes in the back of your head.
348
00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:09,440
Make sure your eyes are wide open.
349
00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:14,240
All right, I've shared seven things to consider if you have an ideal mentor before you with
350
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:15,240
a bad reputation.
351
00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:17,880
Number one, take what you've heard very seriously.
352
00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,960
Number two, ask questions about others' experiences.
353
00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:21,960
Get informed.
354
00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:26,280
Number three, when informers give you information, treat them with respect.
355
00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:28,040
Treat them with respect.
356
00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:32,020
Number four, clarify what your goals are and whether this mentor actually is the mentor
357
00:19:32,020 --> 00:19:35,240
you need or whether you need a different kind of mentor and you only need this mentor's
358
00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:36,920
name.
359
00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:38,580
Observe their interactions with others.
360
00:19:38,580 --> 00:19:43,740
You want to make sure that you get to experience them in the full spectrum of when they could
361
00:19:43,740 --> 00:19:45,120
be upset.
362
00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:47,240
And then you want to clarify the rules of engagement.
363
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,520
You want to go in with your eyes wide open.
364
00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:50,520
All right.
365
00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:52,600
So that's been a pleasure talking with you today.
366
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:53,600
Thank you again for listening.
367
00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,640
And remember, if you're looking for a coach, I'm happy to be your coach.
368
00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,560
Send me a DM on Instagram or on LinkedIn.
369
00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:05,080
LinkedIn is a better place to find me and I'd be happy to connect with you.
370
00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:06,080
All right.
371
00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:07,800
It's been a pleasure talking with you today.
372
00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:15,320
I look forward to talking with you again next time on the Clinician Researcher podcast.
373
00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:20,280
Have a great day.
374
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:25,600
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher podcast where academic
375
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:31,080
clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they
376
00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:32,400
have a mentor.
377
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:38,520
If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.
378
00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:40,280
Someone else needs to hear it.
379
00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:44,320
So take a minute right now and share it.
380
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:49,760
As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation
381
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:55,720
of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,860
Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills
2
00:00:05,860 --> 00:00:11,260
to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.
3
00:00:11,260 --> 00:00:17,340
As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.
4
00:00:17,340 --> 00:00:22,380
When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find
5
00:00:22,380 --> 00:00:27,780
that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research
6
00:00:27,780 --> 00:00:29,200
program.
7
00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:35,480
Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.
8
00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:40,580
However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.
9
00:00:40,580 --> 00:00:46,200
For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians
10
00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,800
the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.
11
00:00:51,800 --> 00:01:01,320
Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.
12
00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,080
Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast.
13
00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:08,360
I'm your host Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is an absolute pleasure to be talking with you
14
00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:09,360
today.
15
00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:10,360
Thank you so much for tuning in.
16
00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:14,400
Today I'm talking about the ideal mentor with a poor reputation.
17
00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:17,360
Yep, the ideal mentor with a poor reputation.
18
00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:21,760
What do you do when you're like, this is the mentor for me, but I don't like what
19
00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:22,760
I'm hearing.
20
00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:27,280
And this actually comes from a recent coaching session, and this question came up with one
21
00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:33,360
of our clients who is very interested in potentially pursuing a relationship, but they have heard
22
00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:36,380
a couple of things that are interesting about this mentor.
23
00:01:36,380 --> 00:01:38,240
So what do you do with that?
24
00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:44,480
And I want to say that when I think back on my own experiences, I realized that I didn't
25
00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:49,000
always pay attention to my inner gut feeling like I should have.
26
00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:52,080
I thought, no, let's just be logical about this.
27
00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:53,720
Clearly this person's really brilliant.
28
00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:54,720
They succeeded.
29
00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:57,440
They've had a lot of mentees.
30
00:01:57,440 --> 00:01:59,400
It must just be them.
31
00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:08,320
And so I'm here to help you not make the mistakes that I have made and just help you think about
32
00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:14,280
how do you strategically enter into such a relationship with your eyes wide open if you
33
00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:15,800
should choose to venture forward.
34
00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:20,880
So I'm going to talk about seven reasons, well, seven things you should consider, seven
35
00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:26,040
things you should consider when you find the ideal mentor who has a poor reputation.
36
00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:27,040
Okay.
37
00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:32,680
The first thing you want to know is you want to take everything you hear very seriously.
38
00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:34,720
Now take everything you hear seriously.
39
00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:38,080
I didn't say believe everything you hear, right?
40
00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:41,280
There are always many sides to any story.
41
00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:45,200
So don't believe everything you hear, but take what you hear seriously.
42
00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:50,100
Take what you hear seriously, especially if it's a reputation that's been built, right?
43
00:02:50,100 --> 00:02:53,240
It's one thing if one person said, eh, I had a bad experience.
44
00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:57,360
It's another thing if people are like, no, no, no, no, no, this is a consistent thing.
45
00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:03,520
And you now have to do due diligence to understand what are the issues at play.
46
00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:08,560
So you're taking it seriously, allows you to say, let me investigate.
47
00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:12,480
Let me make sure I fully understand what is going on.
48
00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:17,160
What you don't want to do is dismiss it, but you don't want to do is be so desperate that
49
00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:21,680
you're like, well, I can't find another mentor and this is absolutely the best and most important
50
00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:25,280
mentor and this person is the ideal mentor and I don't care.
51
00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:26,280
I'm just going to go forward.
52
00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:28,040
You don't want to do that.
53
00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:33,360
First of all, because you're not desperate.
54
00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:37,820
There are other mentors and even if this one is the ideal mentor, there will always be
55
00:03:37,820 --> 00:03:39,420
other mentors.
56
00:03:39,420 --> 00:03:45,880
And so what you want to do is just take a deep breath, take your time and do your due
57
00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:47,040
diligence.
58
00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:52,120
So the first thing you want to do is take what you've heard seriously.
59
00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,080
That's number one.
60
00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,240
Number two is ask questions.
61
00:03:56,240 --> 00:04:00,200
Now remember I said number one, that you don't have to believe everything you hear, but you
62
00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,120
don't want to take it seriously enough to start asking questions.
63
00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:04,600
And so this is important.
64
00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:05,600
You're doing your due diligence.
65
00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:10,480
And part of that is going and saying, hey, help me understand this mentor's specific
66
00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:11,480
reputation.
67
00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:13,640
Help me understand what's happening.
68
00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:19,140
It is helpful to ask people firsthand who had an experience of this mentor.
69
00:04:19,140 --> 00:04:25,680
Now I will tell you that if you're in academia, many people will not tell you about their
70
00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:27,240
experience because they're afraid.
71
00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:28,600
They're afraid of retaliation.
72
00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,160
They're afraid that it will come back to bite them.
73
00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:33,880
They're afraid that they might come across as ungrateful.
74
00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:38,560
And so if you're going to uncover the truth, you're going to want to be strategic about
75
00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:39,560
it.
76
00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:44,240
Number one, you're going to want to find somebody who actually has had the experience that is
77
00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:48,480
being talked about, the actual concerning experience.
78
00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:53,280
But you also want to create an atmosphere of safety and confidentiality so that they
79
00:04:53,280 --> 00:04:55,160
can share with you.
80
00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:59,880
Because the worst thing is to have someone show up and say, oh yeah, poor reputation.
81
00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:02,280
I would think twice if I were you.
82
00:05:02,280 --> 00:05:03,280
But that doesn't tell you anything.
83
00:05:03,280 --> 00:05:04,280
It doesn't tell you what happened.
84
00:05:04,280 --> 00:05:06,880
It doesn't tell you what the person did.
85
00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:12,160
But nobody owes you any explanation for why the relationship with a mentor turned sour
86
00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:13,800
or didn't go as it should have.
87
00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:15,320
They don't owe you.
88
00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:17,120
You're the one who's looking for information.
89
00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:21,920
You're the one who's making a decision that impacts upon your career or your future.
90
00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,600
You're going to be the one to create the kind of environment that allows people to speak
91
00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,080
freely and truthfully.
92
00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:29,400
How might you do that?
93
00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:36,400
Well, for one, you want to be sincere and you want to definitely make sure that they
94
00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:40,000
understand that whatever they tell you is going to be held in confidence.
95
00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:43,680
And you want to help them understand why you need the information.
96
00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:48,800
I'm really considering entering into a mentoring relationship with this person or being a mentee
97
00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,760
of this person because of XYZ.
98
00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,560
And I think it's important to my career in this way.
99
00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:58,600
For this reason, I really want to understand some of the things that I've been hearing
100
00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,120
and you've had a personal experience.
101
00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:05,000
That's why I want to really get a sense of your experience so that I can make a better
102
00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:09,240
informed decision about this relationship.
103
00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:14,200
And honestly, anybody who's been in a tight spot before with anybody, they don't want
104
00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:16,360
anybody else to end up in the same situation.
105
00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:21,000
And so they are likely to now share with you because they want to help you make an informed
106
00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:22,000
decision.
107
00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:26,080
This is the point at which people will say, look, I had to take my word for it.
108
00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,520
Maybe this was just my experience, but you want to take them seriously.
109
00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,920
And you want to ask the right questions.
110
00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:35,240
So you're not just asking about their experience.
111
00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:40,520
You're asking about, well, what may have been the trigger?
112
00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:42,440
What was the thing that may have prompted it?
113
00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:44,880
What are some patterns that they've noticed?
114
00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:48,240
What are some ways in which they wish they had been able to deal with it?
115
00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,640
What were some support structures that they leaned on?
116
00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,520
You want to really ask questions.
117
00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:55,460
Don't just gloss over anything.
118
00:06:55,460 --> 00:06:58,440
You want to really get to the bottom of it because ultimately you're going to make a
119
00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:00,440
decision.
120
00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:04,400
Quality information allows you to make a high quality decision.
121
00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:09,720
So you want to understand exactly what's happening so you can make a quality decision.
122
00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:10,720
Okay.
123
00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:11,800
That's number two.
124
00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,640
Ask questions about others' experiences.
125
00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:19,400
Number three, when you go to talk to someone, you want to treat them with respect.
126
00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:20,400
What do I mean?
127
00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:22,080
You're a respectful person.
128
00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:28,280
But what I mean is, sometimes you start listening to someone's story and maybe, let's use an
129
00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:33,200
example, maybe their English is not great and you're like, oh yeah, must be your English.
130
00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,440
Yeah, of course this person was mean to you.
131
00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:37,240
You don't even not speak English.
132
00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:38,240
That's just an example, right?
133
00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:43,640
I'm not saying anybody's English is bad, but you dismiss the person or maybe something
134
00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:49,680
else like, okay, well, this person may have shared with you that, well, this mentor was
135
00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,840
always getting on my case about finishing manuscripts on time.
136
00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:54,880
And you're like, oh, is that it?
137
00:07:54,880 --> 00:08:00,320
Well, if you weren't so lazy, he wouldn't probably have gotten on your case like that.
138
00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:02,880
And then you dismiss what the person is telling you.
139
00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:03,880
You don't want to do that.
140
00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:08,920
Don't be that person who dismisses the informant because you're like, oh, victim blaming or
141
00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:09,920
anything like that.
142
00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,920
I'm not saying the victim is correct or the person is a victim.
143
00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:18,880
I'm not even saying they're a victim, but don't say, oh, that was a you problem.
144
00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:21,720
Or it's not likely to happen to me because guess what?
145
00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:27,160
If it happened to someone, it's likely to happen again.
146
00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,480
In this area, lightning can strike twice.
147
00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:34,520
So you want to respect the person who's giving you the information.
148
00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:36,680
Don't dismiss any of their concerns.
149
00:08:36,680 --> 00:08:41,440
Even if you feel like, well, if they had just done better, then maybe the mentor wouldn't
150
00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:43,320
have acted the way they acted.
151
00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:45,280
Remember this is a reputation.
152
00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:49,600
That means it's likely happened to more than one person you want to take your informant
153
00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:50,800
seriously.
154
00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:56,040
And so treat them with respect when they share their story and they'll be more likely to
155
00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:57,080
share more with you.
156
00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:01,320
They may refer you to other people to talk with, but don't dismiss their story.
157
00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:02,320
Don't say it was just you.
158
00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:03,720
I'm going to be fine.
159
00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:08,760
You want to treat them with respect and give them the benefit of the doubt.
160
00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:09,760
Okay.
161
00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:12,200
Now you've gotten all this information.
162
00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,680
Number four is for you to clarify your own goals.
163
00:09:14,680 --> 00:09:17,320
Why is this the ideal mentor for you?
164
00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,360
What does this mentor do for you that you don't already have?
165
00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,440
And it's a really important question to ask because sometimes in academia we have this
166
00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:27,520
scarcity mentality where we're like, well, they could only be one mentor for me because
167
00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,320
this is the person who wrote the textbook.
168
00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:35,040
Here's the thing about the guy who wrote the textbook or the woman who wrote the textbook.
169
00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:39,680
In general, by the time they're writing textbooks, they've become pretty busy.
170
00:09:39,680 --> 00:09:45,080
And if you're an early career faculty member or you're a fellow who's barely done any research,
171
00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:49,080
maybe they're not the right primary mentor for you.
172
00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:51,460
And so the question is, well, what do you need to get?
173
00:09:51,460 --> 00:09:54,800
If you're like, oh, I've never done research and this person's like the best, so I want
174
00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:56,280
to learn from the best.
175
00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,560
I'm not saying that's not a bad thing.
176
00:09:59,560 --> 00:10:03,720
I'm just saying that you really probably want to look for someone who's going to give you
177
00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:07,640
the time of day, who's really going to invest in you, spend time with you, go through your
178
00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:10,360
manuscripts line by line with you.
179
00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,720
The person has written a couple of textbooks and they probably have less time.
180
00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:19,820
Now, they may have an ecosystem of senior graduate students or early career faculty
181
00:10:19,820 --> 00:10:22,560
who can help mentor you.
182
00:10:22,560 --> 00:10:23,560
And that's fine.
183
00:10:23,560 --> 00:10:27,880
You want to know that they're not going to have anything to do with you or that they're
184
00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:30,200
going to be hands on in your business all the time.
185
00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:31,440
You want to know.
186
00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:35,160
So you want to clarify for yourself, what do I need?
187
00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:37,840
And can this mentor deliver that for me?
188
00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:41,860
If you're early on, you're starting out in research, you don't have much experience,
189
00:10:41,860 --> 00:10:44,200
you need a mentor who's going to hold your hand.
190
00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:45,200
You do.
191
00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:48,560
You need a mentor who's going to encourage you, who's going to walk you through imposter
192
00:10:48,560 --> 00:10:52,580
syndrome, who's not going to see your first draft and lose it.
193
00:10:52,580 --> 00:10:55,000
You do want that.
194
00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,680
And if that's what you need, is this the right mentor for you?
195
00:10:58,680 --> 00:11:01,080
So you want to be sure what are your goals.
196
00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,760
But if all you're looking for is maybe sponsorship and you just want the person to know you enough
197
00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:07,960
to talk you up at their next meeting, great.
198
00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:09,120
You know that's what you need.
199
00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:11,560
So you can engage cautiously.
200
00:11:11,560 --> 00:11:17,280
Or maybe you know that, no, in this field, this person's name is so important and needs
201
00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,720
to be on every paper I write.
202
00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:20,720
Okay.
203
00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:24,840
If all you need is the name on a paper, does that person need to be your mentor?
204
00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:28,700
So do you understand why clarifying your goal helps you?
205
00:11:28,700 --> 00:11:34,600
If this person is well known for berating women, for example, and unfortunately in academia,
206
00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:38,640
that behavior can be tolerated if someone's successful enough.
207
00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:40,000
At least I've seen it happen.
208
00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,760
Of course, not at my institution and probably not at yours.
209
00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:47,800
But there's some people who are excellent in their work, not great mentors, and they
210
00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,000
don't necessarily treat people well.
211
00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:54,600
And so if you find out that maybe this is a mentor who berates women often and you're
212
00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:59,640
a woman, then you can ask yourself, well, if all I need is their name on a paper, then
213
00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:03,320
there's no need for me to do the weekly meetings with them where I may be at risk for this
214
00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:04,320
berating behavior.
215
00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:05,840
That's what I'm hearing about.
216
00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:10,440
Why don't I just meet with this person when the paper is done and ready to be sent out?
217
00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:15,140
And I'm like, hey, you look like the kind of guy who would give me great input.
218
00:12:15,140 --> 00:12:16,140
Would you like to be a co-author?
219
00:12:16,140 --> 00:12:19,080
Would it be fine if we can know that kind of thing?
220
00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:23,240
So you just want to be clear what you're getting from the person so that you can know whether
221
00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:27,320
you need to enter into a full research mentoring relationship with them, whether they can just
222
00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:29,160
be a career advisor.
223
00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:30,240
You want to know.
224
00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:36,400
You want to understand your goals so that you can align your goals in the relationship.
225
00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:41,000
Now if you decide that, okay, I've clarified my goals.
226
00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:42,320
This is certainly the mentor for me.
227
00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:44,720
This is absolutely the right person.
228
00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:50,080
Then you want to do number five, observe their interactions with others.
229
00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:51,160
Now this is so important.
230
00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:54,760
And I think a lot of people don't do this.
231
00:12:54,760 --> 00:13:00,280
They say, well, other people's experiences don't matter.
232
00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:01,280
I'm different.
233
00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:02,520
I'm the unicorn.
234
00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:06,320
There's no way this thing that happened to them, they yelled at you.
235
00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:12,840
Yeah, that's because you are such a scaredy cat.
236
00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:18,800
You want to just observe and just see, okay, okay.
237
00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,820
And the way this person talks with others, how are they behaving?
238
00:13:22,820 --> 00:13:26,120
You want to find them when they're stressed and you want to know how are they behaving.
239
00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:31,040
You want to find them when they're like, you know, in the challenging times is when you
240
00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:32,280
want to really observe someone.
241
00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:36,240
So that means if you're going to observe someone, you've got to give it enough time to really
242
00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:42,160
observe them at different, you know, in different modes so that you know you've seen them when
243
00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:43,160
they're stressed.
244
00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:47,180
You know, you've seen them when they're angry, when they're hungry, when they've been frustrated.
245
00:13:47,180 --> 00:13:50,320
You want to see them as much as possible in their interactions with others so that you
246
00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:55,640
can judge firsthand for yourself what this behavior looks like, right?
247
00:13:55,640 --> 00:14:00,480
So that's really important for you so that you can judge what the behavior looks like,
248
00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:01,480
okay?
249
00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:03,680
So observe their interactions with others.
250
00:14:03,680 --> 00:14:05,440
Make sure you have a clear picture.
251
00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,560
So don't just say, I'm just going to observe their interactions with men.
252
00:14:08,560 --> 00:14:11,040
It's like, no, no, no, this is a woman berating problem.
253
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:13,720
You're going to observe their interactions with women too.
254
00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,000
So you want to observe their interactions with everybody.
255
00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:20,680
You also want to, even if they're like their problem is berating women, you want to observe
256
00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:22,080
their interactions with men.
257
00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:25,320
Well, if they treat women this way, how do they treat the men?
258
00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:29,120
And maybe you'll uncover there that, you know, that's just how they treat everybody, which
259
00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:32,140
is not a good thing, but still may be helpful to know.
260
00:14:32,140 --> 00:14:34,400
Or you might find out that, oh, I get it.
261
00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:35,400
I get it.
262
00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,120
It's just, men are treated differently.
263
00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:39,120
Got it.
264
00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:40,520
So you want to observe.
265
00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:44,680
And there is, I mean, you know, he's being deceived by your eyes because maybe you'll
266
00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:48,800
observe and the person will be beautiful and kind to everyone in public, but it's really
267
00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:54,320
in the dark secret places or in the quiet of their office that they unleash their, you
268
00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:56,080
know, Frankenstein.
269
00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:57,480
It's possible.
270
00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:00,600
So that's why you want to observe in as many settings as possible.
271
00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:01,600
Okay.
272
00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:06,440
Especially with other witnesses so that you're not by yourself with this person.
273
00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:07,440
Okay.
274
00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:09,440
So observe their interactions with others.
275
00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:10,440
Okay.
276
00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:11,560
You've observed their interactions.
277
00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:13,040
You've asked questions.
278
00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,720
You're clear about your goals.
279
00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:20,520
You're now like, okay, let's say to your mentor, I'm going to ask this person to be my mentor.
280
00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:21,520
It's like, okay.
281
00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:27,040
If you're going to go in, let's clarify the rules of engagement.
282
00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:28,200
What do I mean by that?
283
00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:29,200
Okay.
284
00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:33,160
So you've heard that this person, especially when they're in a room alone with you may
285
00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,200
start to get to yelling, right?
286
00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:41,080
So you want to be clear about, well, I know what circumstances, are we going to be alone
287
00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,940
together in a room such that you feel comfortable yelling, right?
288
00:15:44,940 --> 00:15:48,920
Maybe you just have group coaching, a group mentoring meetings where you're like, okay,
289
00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:51,560
me and the postdoc will go into the meetings together.
290
00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:54,960
So you always have a witness and it makes it less likely that this is going to be berating
291
00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:57,460
happening in front of someone else, right?
292
00:15:57,460 --> 00:16:00,960
So you want to be very clear about how you're going to engage with this person.
293
00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,440
Maybe you found this person who looks, you know, is a little bit handsy.
294
00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:10,800
You're like, okay, how do I make sure that I maintain sufficient distance so that hands
295
00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:11,800
don't touch me?
296
00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:12,800
You know what I mean?
297
00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:16,400
And so I'm not condoning any behavior as good.
298
00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,320
I'm not condoning bad behavior.
299
00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,560
What I am saying is that if you decide that even after you've heard about someone's poor
300
00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:26,560
reputation that you're in go forward, you just want to understand your stopping rules.
301
00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:27,760
And that's helpful.
302
00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:30,400
If this person does this, then I will.
303
00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:32,440
If this person does this, then I will.
304
00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:37,660
You also want to be clear about like, how do you engage so that you are not put in a
305
00:16:37,660 --> 00:16:41,000
compromising situation that allows you to experience whatever the bad reputation thing
306
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:42,000
is, right?
307
00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,320
So clarify the rules of engagement primarily for yourself.
308
00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,120
It's not so much for the other person because they are who they are.
309
00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:52,240
And so if they show up and they start berating you, you don't get to say, oh, wow, they're
310
00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:53,240
berating me.
311
00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:54,240
I'm upset.
312
00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:55,880
Yeah, no, somebody told you.
313
00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:57,720
And don't get me wrong.
314
00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,760
I'm not saying that people should not seek the help they need.
315
00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:02,600
Please absolutely do that.
316
00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:08,680
But if you're entering into a mentoring relationship with someone who you know expresses specific
317
00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:14,720
poor behavior and you knowingly enter into it, you've chosen that.
318
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,840
Just want to be clear that you're making a choice here.
319
00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:21,600
And what you want to do is say, well, if this happens, then I will.
320
00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:23,440
You want to be clear.
321
00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:27,680
You want to be clear exactly what the stopping rules are.
322
00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,040
And if possible, have accountability with that.
323
00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:34,440
Hey, friend of mine, I'm starting this relationship with a mentor.
324
00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:39,400
Yes, it is a relationship because it's really about human relationships, right?
325
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:43,520
I'm starting this relationship with a mentor and I've heard that this mentor can start
326
00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:49,720
to yell, would you hold me accountable to make sure that if any of these happen, this
327
00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:51,480
is exactly what I'll do, right?
328
00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:55,200
I'm going to let the paper go and I'm going to go to another mentor, right?
329
00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:59,200
So clarify the rules of engagement before you begin.
330
00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:03,280
And number seven is going with your eyes wide open, going with your eyes wide open.
331
00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:07,360
Now, this is not the time to have rose colored glasses and say, oh, this is the best professor
332
00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:09,920
in the world and everybody else must be crazy.
333
00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:11,200
Don't do that.
334
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:12,720
You want to go in with your eyes wide open.
335
00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:20,640
You want to say, hmm, this person has been said to have a bad reputation in X.
336
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:26,400
You want to make sure that you have the opportunity to witness them in that way so that you know
337
00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:27,660
what to do, right?
338
00:18:27,660 --> 00:18:30,240
So you want to make sure that you're not blindsided.
339
00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,640
You go in with your eyes wide open, none of those rose colored glasses.
340
00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:40,600
The world is rose and the people who see it as yellow or wrong, don't be that person.
341
00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:43,080
But you want to be very clear.
342
00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:51,160
So sometimes accountability helps you be clear because you'll say, hey, can you ask me if
343
00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:55,080
I look sad, ask me about my relationship with a mentor or whatever it is.
344
00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,160
But anyway, at the end of the day, if you decide you're going to move forward to the
345
00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:02,760
mentor who doesn't have a great reputation, you want to make sure that you have eyes in
346
00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:05,760
the back of your head.
347
00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:08,280
Okay, no eyes in the back of your head.
348
00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:09,440
Make sure your eyes are wide open.
349
00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:14,240
All right, I've shared seven things to consider if you have an ideal mentor before you with
350
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:15,240
a bad reputation.
351
00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:17,880
Number one, take what you've heard very seriously.
352
00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,960
Number two, ask questions about others' experiences.
353
00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:21,960
Get informed.
354
00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:26,280
Number three, when informers give you information, treat them with respect.
355
00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:28,040
Treat them with respect.
356
00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:32,020
Number four, clarify what your goals are and whether this mentor actually is the mentor
357
00:19:32,020 --> 00:19:35,240
you need or whether you need a different kind of mentor and you only need this mentor's
358
00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:36,920
name.
359
00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:38,580
Observe their interactions with others.
360
00:19:38,580 --> 00:19:43,740
You want to make sure that you get to experience them in the full spectrum of when they could
361
00:19:43,740 --> 00:19:45,120
be upset.
362
00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:47,240
And then you want to clarify the rules of engagement.
363
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,520
You want to go in with your eyes wide open.
364
00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:50,520
All right.
365
00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:52,600
So that's been a pleasure talking with you today.
366
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:53,600
Thank you again for listening.
367
00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,640
And remember, if you're looking for a coach, I'm happy to be your coach.
368
00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,560
Send me a DM on Instagram or on LinkedIn.
369
00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:05,080
LinkedIn is a better place to find me and I'd be happy to connect with you.
370
00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:06,080
All right.
371
00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:07,800
It's been a pleasure talking with you today.
372
00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:15,320
I look forward to talking with you again next time on the Clinician Researcher podcast.
373
00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:20,280
Have a great day.
374
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:25,600
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher podcast where academic
375
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:31,080
clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they
376
00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:32,400
have a mentor.
377
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:38,520
If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.
378
00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:40,280
Someone else needs to hear it.
379
00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:44,320
So take a minute right now and share it.
380
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:49,760
As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation
381
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:55,720
of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.
Sign up for our weekly newsletter
Listen On
New to Clinician Researcher?
Feb. 5, 2024
Keys to Your Success - The Importance of Focus
In this episode, we explore the pivotal role of focus. In the journey to becoming a clinician scientist, we discuss the complexities of balancing clinical responsibilities, research, and administrative duties. Key Points Disc...
Jan. 5, 2024
Welcome to 2024!
In this episode, the Clinician Researcher Podcast sets off Season 2 with a focus on supporting clinicians transitioning to researchers while emphasizing authenticity and individuality. Key Points Discussed: Transitioning to a...
Sept. 4, 2023
How to negotiate your salary
Salary negotiations in academic medicine can be challenging. It is especially challenging because no one teaches you how to negotiate well. In this episode, we break down the salary negotiation process. This process highlight...
Aug. 7, 2023
How to negotiate for protected time
In this episode, we explore the art of negotiating protected time. Negotiate time to advance your research and career by doing the following things: Get clarity on what protected time will do for you. Develop a strategic plan...
Aug. 3, 2023
Why do I need protected time?
Podcast Show Notes - Clinician Researcher, Episode 3: Why do I need protected time? Welcome to another enlightening episode of the "Clinician Researcher" podcast. In this episode, we delve into the concept of "Protected Time"...
Aug. 2, 2023
Can I succeed with or without a mentor?
Podcast Show Notes - Clinician Researcher, Episode 2: Can I Succeed with or without a Mentor? Did you know that mentorship plays a crucial role in shaping the success of clinicians and researchers? According to a systematic r...
Aug. 1, 2023
Why Clinicians Should Lead Research
Welcome to the inaugural episode of the "Clinician Researcher" podcast, where we empower clinicians to become successful research leaders. In this inaugural episode, we explore why clinicians should lead research programs. We...